MunterWrench

Muggs

Muggs

Been here much more than a while
Location
Canuckistan
This is an idea that my friend Joseph Duncan mentioned to me a while back, finally got around to trying it. At the end of a big removal, when you have it down to a spar and you have a tagline tied to it to pull it over, I like to bail out using a Munter. But the Munter requires both hands the whole time to operate. If you let go, you plummet. So the idea is to put your Rope Wrench on the rope above the Munter. It adds a whole new level of control to the Munter, you can actually let go of it completely and it holds you. Highly recommended. Check it out.

 
I see how this could be a tool in the tool box, but if you already have the srt gear you can just choke your line on the spar with a retrieval leg.
I usually just tie in with an alpine butterfly and quickie to cinch onto the spar, tie a bowline on the tail of the retrieval leg pop a biner in it and the tail of my line, descend and then yank it.

Maybe if I dropped my climbing line somehow this could be an option, but I would probably have dropped my wrench too.
 
descending what's the big Fn deal? Skip a step, get off the spurs quicker. No need to slow the process down. I prefer a second line for back up until all checks are clear
 
I think he's kidding. When I didn't know any better when I was learning I did it cause I saw other people doing it but then I got a little wiser and stopped. Just wouldn't want someone new seeing that and thinking it's acceptable
 
Years ago, the repeling down the pull line method made the rounds. Then, before cinching friction savers, the advent of SRS devices into tree work and the like, it was argued to saved time. What we lacked then was a reliable way of having a MRS attached to the peg. It just hung around the stem or was clipped to the harness. Hense, a percived time savings in a rope ready to repel that did not need retrieved.

Today with the aforementioned systems and lots of clever arborists developing retrievable anchors, untying your system ( your are tied in to a climbing system to cut correct?) then hooking into the pull line seems.... strange.

Not being argumentative, just wondering why? I know the what. You showed me the how. Just trying to get at the why or perhaps the why not.

Tony
 
Yes, I know there are many other ways of doing it, including just spurring all the way down the trunk. I'm not trying to blow anybody's mind with this.
 
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Muggs, don't take it personally, but it really is a poor idea. Was then, even more so now.

I don't worry about the rigging lines ultimate strength. If it will lower sections of tree, it will surely hold my skinny ass. It is more a compatibility issue. Rigging ropes can be, and in my case generally are, larger than 1/2". This leads to interface issues. There are a host of construction issues as well, but agin they don't really concern me as the weight is so low. Mostly I don't run climbing hardware on rigging lines because of abrasion. Rigging lines will wear shit down fast in those configurations, simply because there are dirty. It is their job to get dirty, stay dirty and be retired.

While the friction of the Munter and the Wrench may very well hold you and me "hands free" how about the rally heavy climber + gear? I don't know, the climber doesn't know, until of course they try. A poor time to find out really and so dependent on conditions and rope type as to be unpredictable.

I am taking time to make these points because it is not just another way to do something. It is a way that has flaws that are intentionally accepted and/or ignored in lieu of far superior, secure, safer and more efficient systems.

Respectfully with no malice intended,

Tony
 
The absolute easiest way to get this method to be safer is to tie a quick 4-bar prusik below the munter, then clip it to your leg loop. If you go hands free, the prusik catches the brake strand but it's below the munter so you dont have to worry about cracking a weighted prusik. I've used this many times, I come from rock climbing roots.
 
Yes, I agree as well, climbing on rigging lines is a bad idea. Acknowledged. Do some climbers still repel down on a pull line? I think they probably do. Heck, some climbers still climb doubled rope and use natural crotch rigging!

By sharing a little video like this, I'm not hoping to convince anyone of anything. I'm not trying to say "here is a superior way of doing x, it works for every climber, every time, in every circumstance." This is not a NATS course, this is a Youtube video. I don't have an agenda posting this. My friend showed me this and I tried it and thought it was interesting. Is this technique unsafe? I don't think so, but that's just me. Is it the most safe way to come down off a peg? Definitely not. Do I think everyone should do it this way? Of course not.

"Rules are for the guidance of wise men; the adherence of fools." - Douglas Bader
 
Generally, I don't share the same thoughts on stuff as you Muggs, simply because our work styles are a tad different. Not better or worse (although I'd wage you have more experience and tricks in box than I, you bastard), just different.
Now I'm likely gunna get judged on this, but I accept what I'm doing and am not going to argue it's use. I do kinda the opposite. I work a removal SRT up until I can fell the stick. At this point if I need a pull line, I tie my climbing line in a running bowline and repel down on my system.
@Muggs thanks for posting that little tip. Its nice to have a quick way down a stem without some elaborate change over like making a cinched anchor retrievable or something.
 
Muggs said:
Yes, I agree as well, climbing on rigging lines is a bad idea. Acknowledged. Do some climbers still repel down on a pull line? I think they probably do. Heck, some climbers still climb doubled rope and use natural crotch rigging!

By sharing a little video like this, I'm not hoping to convince anyone of anything. I'm not trying to say "here is a superior way of doing x, it works for every climber, every time, in every circumstance." This is not a NATS course, this is a Youtube video. I don't have an agenda posting this. My friend showed me this and I tried it and thought it was interesting. Is this technique unsafe? I don't think so, but that's just me. Is it the most safe way to come down off a peg? Definitely not. Do I think everyone should do it this way? Of course not.

"Rules are for the guidance of wise men; the adherence of fools." - Douglas Bader
Click to expand...


I realize you are not out to change the world. I also know you are not filming a NATS course. Also realize I am not responding as a NATS or ACTE instructor, rather as a arborist and student of the rope who enjoys learning.

As a bit of an asside, when any of us post from a position of "teaching" I feel there is an inherent responsibility to guide the viewer/reader in line with generally accepted industry practice. There is a difference in posting a few guys playing around in the back yard with a "cool" climbing technique Saturday afetrnoon and posting a recommendation/ idea meant for a professional at work.
However, this is a discussion beyond this thread. I will discuss it further later on my blog perhaps and not clutter Muggs post with another topic.

If anyone reading this feels my arguments are based on "following rules" then please reread. Coming out of a tree on a production tree job using a rated climing system is a matter of good sense. Using the system you already should have in place is a matter of common expediency.

In Sir Bader's world of aerial dog fights his quote may have been very apt. For us in less frenzied circumstances with an opponent not actively trying to kill us (trees). Furthermore, the accomplice of gravity is more predictable than an opposing pilot. It may be more apt to read

Rules are for the obedience of the inexperienced and the guidance of wise men.

But thanks for bringing it up as it does add to the discussion.

Tony
 
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Tony, brother, I hear you man. Coming off a peg on a rated climbing system really is a matter of good sense. I agree. Rappelling down a pull rope is not recommended. I did not post this from a position of teaching, not really sure why you would see it that way. The one and only person that I am trying to teach anything to is my apprentice James. I work with him one-on-one so I know where he is with his climbing abilities and I can tailor my instruction just for him.

I realize that someone in your position as an instructor cannot do that for the people you teach. You are, by definition, required to come up with one-size-fits-all solutions that work for every person, every time. You also approach every interaction with the assumption that the person being shown is an inexperienced noob who is likely to get themselves killed if you show them something wrong. Your sense of responsibility to this end is admirable, and I would love to read a blog post from you on this topic. Please know that I have a ton of respect for educators in this trade. Thank you for the work that you do to help arborists be safe and productive.

Why do I rappel down on pull lines (when I know their service life and wear)? Not really sure. Habit I guess. A bad habit, I will admit. Do I recommend it? Nope. Did I know full well that it was not "in line with generally accepted industry practice" before I posted it? Yep.

I don't always follow generally accepted industry practice. The pull line in that video was tied on with a Daisy Chain hitch, an unrecognized knot in arboriculture. Had I been following industry practice, I might have tied a "Clove hitch with 2 half hitches", a knot that I have personally seen come undone in shock load situations multiple times and heard countless stories of the same. That's just one example. I dislike the Clove hitch in rigging so much that I wrote a whole article about it last year. That's pretty nerdy.

Does this mean that I fly by the seat of my pants, always just making stuff up? No, not at all. I love learning new ways of getting stuff done. Do I care about the consensus of the industry? Yes and no. I want to know what industry leaders think, for sure, but at the same time I subject things to my own analysis and testing and make up my own mind. As I like to say, "Exercise your own brain; find your own truth."

So, with that in mind, and regarding this topic of rappelling on pull lines, I will repeat a line that I learned from an instructor with Arbor Canada: "Rigging and climbing lines are like wives and girlfriends - may they never meet."

Respect,

Patrick
 
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