- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Today I recieved some information from David Cooper-Holmes who works for Workware in England. He has given me permission to copy/paste his material. Feel free to pass this on to anyone who has an interest in the topic.
It seems funny to me that the ART bridge was allowed in the ETCC but doesn't seem to be OK for the ITCC. I'm hoping that this issue can be worked out at the Gear Check meeting.
I've used the string of asterisks to divide the parts of the material.
See you in Montreal!
Tom
****************
Hello I have been contacted by several people including competitors regarding the forthcoming ITCC tree climbing competition and the apparent controversy regarding the effects on LOLER and CE standards from modifying a Butterfly harness slide strop.
I have been informed that a modified harness will not be allowed in the competition. You may be aware that the Butterfly is used by the majority of competing climbers in the UK and Europe and several believe that it would be unfair to ban a modified harness at this late stage based on a lack of understanding regarding LOLER and CE.
Workware is the main distributor for Komet Buterfly harnesses and as such, we have in depth knowledge of both CE certification and LOLER requirements regarding harnesses. We would be happy to give any input required to this debate and to hopefullt resolve the situation.
I would be grateful if someone could advise me if it is true that modified Butterfly's will not be allowed and the reasons for this decision. Or if anyone has questions relating to this I would be please to attempt to answer them.
Kind regards David Cooper-Holmes WORKWARE ENGLAND
***************
Changing techniques and methods, encourage innovation from both users and manufacturers. Products evolve, becoming more suitable to ever increasing demands. This has clearly been shown with tree climbing harnesses, which have seen dramatic changes and improvements in a relatively short period of time. Sliding “D” style harnesses have shown significant sales growth due to the improvements in manoeuvrability, whilst also dramatically improving user comfort. However, it is worth pointing out that changes in style can introduce changes in the product, which may not initially be obvious.
With the introduction of sliding “D” style harnesses, for the first time a wear part, the strop on which you slide, has been introduced into the harness. This applies to all brands. The life of the strop is impossible to predict, as there are factors over which the harness manufacturers have no control. The method of connecting to rope, the cleanliness, the weight of the user are all factors affecting the life of the slide strop.
We are often asked what happens when the strop has exceeded its safe working life and yet the harness is still in perfect condition. We are also often asked about the safety implications should someone want to modify the length of the strop to suit their own climbing style, or replace the strop once it is worn out. The general guidelines for this are as follows.
If someone has tied in an appropriate and suitable length of rope between the two aluminium rings, and this has been tied off at each end with a recognised and suitable knot, such as a double fisherman’s, bunt line, anchor hitch etc. And this has all been tied to accepted industry guidelines, and is LOLER compliant (being subject to inspection by a competent person) then, this would be an accepted modification or alteration to the harness. This procedure would not affect the CE certification for the harness.
****************
Komet is a wholly owned subsidiary of Bacou Dalloz, the world’s largest manufacturer of harnesses for all industrial applications. As such, logic would suggest that their technical departments are fully aware of all world-wide legislation and standards and that all products conform to relevant standards.
The confusion regarding the Komet Butterfly harness and the standards it conforms to stems from the following.
The standards in question are EN358 and EN813. Generally, EN358 is a positioning standard and EN813 is a sit standard. The main difference was that EN358 required in its first version, two anchorage points for positioning or suspension, where EN813 required only one. Arborist harnesses generally have two D’s on the sides and one central. This is why some harnesses have been tested to both standards. As EN358 has now changed and now allows for one D for positioning, EN358 now includes EN813, as basically all the tests are the same. So, EN813 now has no relevance. For further information, EN813 was created under pressure from Petzl, so that their Navaho Vario harness could be sold in the industrial sector.
With regard to the sliding D strap, since the introduction of sliding D style harnesses, for the first time a wear part was introduces into a harness, naturally this applies to all brands. The life of this strap varies considerably dependant on the method of fixing and general care of the harness. As with all harnesses, regular visual checking is essential.
Should a decision be made that the strap is worn and may become dangerous then it should be replaced. In the UK, we have Troll who again is a member of the Bacou Dalloz group who are now certified to carry out replacements which are CE approved. I am not sure of other country’s arrangements.
However, I am aware of many users who replace the strap themselves by tying in a strop. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with this as long as the user knows what he is doing and has confidence in his own skills. It is also worth mentioning that the sliding D style came from climbers tying a strop across their positioning D’s in the first place.
I think it is also worth pointing out, that here in the UK we are probable policed more that any other country. We have the department of trade and industry, the department of trading standards and the health and safety executive all ensuring that we conform to all relevant and correct standards. The Komet Butterfly has been among the country’s top selling harnesses for over 3 years. If for any reason this harness did not meet standards, every harness would have to be withdrawn. This simply is not the case.
**************
It seems funny to me that the ART bridge was allowed in the ETCC but doesn't seem to be OK for the ITCC. I'm hoping that this issue can be worked out at the Gear Check meeting.
I've used the string of asterisks to divide the parts of the material.
See you in Montreal!
Tom
****************
Hello I have been contacted by several people including competitors regarding the forthcoming ITCC tree climbing competition and the apparent controversy regarding the effects on LOLER and CE standards from modifying a Butterfly harness slide strop.
I have been informed that a modified harness will not be allowed in the competition. You may be aware that the Butterfly is used by the majority of competing climbers in the UK and Europe and several believe that it would be unfair to ban a modified harness at this late stage based on a lack of understanding regarding LOLER and CE.
Workware is the main distributor for Komet Buterfly harnesses and as such, we have in depth knowledge of both CE certification and LOLER requirements regarding harnesses. We would be happy to give any input required to this debate and to hopefullt resolve the situation.
I would be grateful if someone could advise me if it is true that modified Butterfly's will not be allowed and the reasons for this decision. Or if anyone has questions relating to this I would be please to attempt to answer them.
Kind regards David Cooper-Holmes WORKWARE ENGLAND
***************
Changing techniques and methods, encourage innovation from both users and manufacturers. Products evolve, becoming more suitable to ever increasing demands. This has clearly been shown with tree climbing harnesses, which have seen dramatic changes and improvements in a relatively short period of time. Sliding “D” style harnesses have shown significant sales growth due to the improvements in manoeuvrability, whilst also dramatically improving user comfort. However, it is worth pointing out that changes in style can introduce changes in the product, which may not initially be obvious.
With the introduction of sliding “D” style harnesses, for the first time a wear part, the strop on which you slide, has been introduced into the harness. This applies to all brands. The life of the strop is impossible to predict, as there are factors over which the harness manufacturers have no control. The method of connecting to rope, the cleanliness, the weight of the user are all factors affecting the life of the slide strop.
We are often asked what happens when the strop has exceeded its safe working life and yet the harness is still in perfect condition. We are also often asked about the safety implications should someone want to modify the length of the strop to suit their own climbing style, or replace the strop once it is worn out. The general guidelines for this are as follows.
If someone has tied in an appropriate and suitable length of rope between the two aluminium rings, and this has been tied off at each end with a recognised and suitable knot, such as a double fisherman’s, bunt line, anchor hitch etc. And this has all been tied to accepted industry guidelines, and is LOLER compliant (being subject to inspection by a competent person) then, this would be an accepted modification or alteration to the harness. This procedure would not affect the CE certification for the harness.
****************
Komet is a wholly owned subsidiary of Bacou Dalloz, the world’s largest manufacturer of harnesses for all industrial applications. As such, logic would suggest that their technical departments are fully aware of all world-wide legislation and standards and that all products conform to relevant standards.
The confusion regarding the Komet Butterfly harness and the standards it conforms to stems from the following.
The standards in question are EN358 and EN813. Generally, EN358 is a positioning standard and EN813 is a sit standard. The main difference was that EN358 required in its first version, two anchorage points for positioning or suspension, where EN813 required only one. Arborist harnesses generally have two D’s on the sides and one central. This is why some harnesses have been tested to both standards. As EN358 has now changed and now allows for one D for positioning, EN358 now includes EN813, as basically all the tests are the same. So, EN813 now has no relevance. For further information, EN813 was created under pressure from Petzl, so that their Navaho Vario harness could be sold in the industrial sector.
With regard to the sliding D strap, since the introduction of sliding D style harnesses, for the first time a wear part was introduces into a harness, naturally this applies to all brands. The life of this strap varies considerably dependant on the method of fixing and general care of the harness. As with all harnesses, regular visual checking is essential.
Should a decision be made that the strap is worn and may become dangerous then it should be replaced. In the UK, we have Troll who again is a member of the Bacou Dalloz group who are now certified to carry out replacements which are CE approved. I am not sure of other country’s arrangements.
However, I am aware of many users who replace the strap themselves by tying in a strop. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with this as long as the user knows what he is doing and has confidence in his own skills. It is also worth mentioning that the sliding D style came from climbers tying a strop across their positioning D’s in the first place.
I think it is also worth pointing out, that here in the UK we are probable policed more that any other country. We have the department of trade and industry, the department of trading standards and the health and safety executive all ensuring that we conform to all relevant and correct standards. The Komet Butterfly has been among the country’s top selling harnesses for over 3 years. If for any reason this harness did not meet standards, every harness would have to be withdrawn. This simply is not the case.
**************
