Major rope burn

Aww crap Steve ,
yeah Big Boppa you are out of the race for now.
depending on how caulesed your skin was - it traps more heat in the thicker the outer dead layers are.
watch out for infections from those blisters when they pop - not going to be pretty.
 
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My wife used to be the athletic trainer for a high level men's gymnastics team, and they all used Preperation H on their hands. No joke. Reduced the swelling and tenderness of blisters, and helped toughen up the skin, from what I understand.
Heal up, Steve! I'd forgotten how painful rope burn is until I read this thread. Then all the memories come rushing back.
 
My hands are much better today. I should be able to climb tomorrow. Blistering isn't as bad as I thought it would be. I tend to avoid narcotic based pain meds. I can't function legally at the fire station while taking those meds.

I usually wear gloves while climbing. Rarely while roping. I use atlas sticky gloves so running rope is less than ideal with that much grip. I actually never rope unless I rope for myself. When I do I use the AFB or the RNW. The situation here is the tree was so bad the other climber only wanted me to rope. I protested but ended up doing it. He and I don't rig in a similar fashion and he was expecting me to perform miracles with gravity that could not be performed. The main point is that the tree never should have been climbed in the first place. Nor should you hang a block in a rotten lead and have another block at a greater than 90 degree angle from the first. However, I felt confident enough that I could crash stuff down in the lz with little effort. I just didn't take into consideration how much force would be created with a large swing. Like I said it was the same size piece I had been running without the porty all morning. Miscalculation on my part for sure.

Thankfully things weren't as bad as they could have been to person or property. I knew I was up shits creek when it lifted me up off the ground and it was still running through my hands. Many lessons learned for me. Unfortunately they were lessons I have taught or figured out before. I guess I deserved what I got! I did get off an hour early and didn't get paid for that time. Again that workmans comp grey area rears its ugly head.

I much prefer being the guy in the tree! Ground work sucks compared to climbing. Thanks for all the well wishes.
 
So, @Steve Connally, a couple of things I'd like to discuss. First, with the climber using two blocks in the tree, was it that he had one high on the stem, plus a second one hanging on a branch higher up and away from the stem? The idea being to try to have the block offset from the cut, with the branch tip tied, so that a big swing would be induced once the cut is complete? The idea being to try to use the weight of the branch to get it to swing way out and past a target, in this case, the fence.

This sounds like one of those instances were the Sena headsets would have come in handy, as pulling off this feat would require fine coordination between the cutter and the rope man. If I'm seeing it right, the idea would have been for the cutter to complete the cut while the rope man holds back hard on the rope, in order to use the offset block as a pivot point. Then, when the limb swings past that block, and reaches the furthest point it is going to go, the rope man essentially completely lets go of the rope, allowing it to freely run through his leather gloved hands, almost friction-free. This would allow the branch to use all of its weight at full steam to throw itself laterally as far as possible.

The dangerous part of this operation would be holding back the weight initially, as it would put a lot of sideways stress on the stem.

This is my guess as to what the climber was trying to do, but if you don't have really effective communication, or at least have spelled out the gameplan in advance of the attempt, it would be hard to pull off.

Any time either I or someone who is helping me stands a chance of having a rope running in between their hands, I insist on the wearing of leather gloves. What I really would like is something that probably doesn't exist, which is a thin, soft, supple, heat resistant liner glove that could be worn inside the leather ones.

The sticky, inexpensive climbing gloves that I get as a bonus from TreeStuff are the opposite texture of what I want when there's a chance I'll have a rope running between my hands. Leather is just slippery enough and thick enough to work well at allowing the rope to run, while at the same time providing some small amount of protection from the heat that might be generated.

In the automotive accessories section of Target stores, they used to have (& I assume still do) a board on which gloves of different types are hanging. There's one in particular that is really soft, brown leather, fairly thin and easy to work with. I'll try on several pairs, because I'm looking for the ones where the ridges in the joined material do not irritate me. I usually find at least a few pairs that feel completely smooth on the inside, and therefore comfortable, for some reason. My favorite gloves ever.

Thanks for your time.

Tim

Edit/P.S. I was just wondering about whether or not it would cause a problem to just completely drop a rope and step back once the branch reaches its maximum point of deflection during the swing? In that way, the rope would be absolutely free to run as fast as it is capable of, limited only by the wraps on the bollard, and the groundie and his hands would be entirely clear of the running rope. You'd just have to make sure the rope on the ground was set up for a snag-free run.
 
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CanadianStan said:
If you're positioning your fingers properly on the hitch cord, you shouldn't see too much heat on a long descent. With that being said, hitch cords / prussiks aren't meant for long descents either. Try using a Fig 8, Munter hitch, or even something like a Gri-Gri. These items are much better at dissipating heat on long descents.

As for roping from the ground, I've always used my climbing gloves (Blue or Black Atlas gloves) but I have seen guys hand-run 6" horse chestnut tops barehanded before ... scared the snot out of me
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Hey, CanadianStan! Thanks for your post. When you talk about "If you're positioning your fingers properly on the hitch cord, you shouldn't see too much heat on a long descent", could you describe this hand position to which you are referring? I might end up linking your answer to another thread about hitch binding with the Rope Wrench, and issues related to it.

Thanks for the opinion about hitches not being intended to be used for long descents. This is the first time I've ever read anyone express that point of view, and as such it is expanding my knowledge base, and possibly that of anybody else who reads it. It seems to be a reasonable supposition, but it has me wondering how many full time climbers out there actually come off of their hitches completely before making a long descent out of a tree for the day? It would probably save a lot of wear and tear on the rope and hitch cord, but I thought the name of the game with most climbers was to try to find a combination of hitch cord, rope, and climbing hitch that worked well together, and provided smooth, easy control. The Holy Grail, as it were.

I'm wondering about the possibility of keeping the hitch and Rope Wrench or Hitch Hiker in play, but also adding a midline attachable friction device, like one of those racks, below the primary device. The racks have multiple levels of friction that can be introduced as a result of their design, and as such, could be "dialed in" over time. It would be extra expense and trouble, but if it resulted in a really smooth experience every time, it might be worth it. I think they make a really small "mini-rack" or something similar. Just brainstorming here; thanks again for your post, it has me thinking.

Tim

P.S. Adding in a figure 8 might work better than a rack; I'm still reading about them, but they might not be capable of what I'd be hoping to do. If you used a figure 8 inline, you'd still have the hitch backing you up. I don't currently own a figure 8, I have a different kind of device that almost creates too much friction and causes me to have to tend the rope to much.
 
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Steve Connally said:
Smoked both my hands today. Done working. My hands are on fire, fingertips purple and bruised and throbbing. I wasn't roping anything bigger than I had been but where I miscalculated was the inertia on the swing. Once it cleared the fence I let go and that's all She wrote. Anybody have any good remidies? It's not blistered but my fingers have rope grooves in them and the spots are really white Ibuprofen isn't helping! Shit! Hope I don't have to take time off this week for my own stupidity.
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Sorry for your 'plates' my man! My hands look like that after a 17 metre hip thrust today!!... Normally a walk in the park, but haven't been climbing for a few weeks though!!... have been shovelling gravel though, tons and of GRAVEL!! Boss has been exploiting my multi-talented body a little too much recently,

(...this is written between riffling files/boxes looking for the contract I signed!!!)...

However,.. this kind of work used to tear my hands to shreds!! Three weeks of nothing else, with no gloves, and not even a single blister!! 10 minutes into a simple dead wooding mission and I had no palms left!!

...my conclusion:

Tree work and regularly washing dishes do NOT mix!

...aloe vera....

...straight from the leaf, if you can get it!
 
Tim,
Let me try to address a few of the things you asked about. The sena communication system is a no go. I have one and have set my rope man up with one I made from an old helmet and spare parts. He tossed me some coin for it and his brother gave him the main unit from his motorcycle helmet. Unfortunately he's back on heroin so I have no idea how long it'll last. I do have a spare helmet set up in the truck but I'm really reluctant to let the other climber use it. He's in my opinion a total idiot and no matter how much I communicated with him, he's gonna do whatever he wants. He truly feels superior to everyone because he climbs unsafe stuff and hasn't used up his golden horseshoe yet. I have seen him almost die at least 3 times since I've been there. His job security is that he allows himself to be expendable. He isn't gonna buy his own because the pills take priority. He's been fired a number of times but we can't find another climber willing to work in this circus so he's there until he's replaced.

Gloves. take them or leave them. I have worked with many a rope man who don't wear gloves. I have worked with some awesome guys who just don't need them. Now keep in mind their hands look like elephant skin but still no gloves. I used to spend a lot on gloves. They don't last. Mostly because of wear, sweat and some of them stain your hands.

As far as letting the rope run free when it swung to where the lz was. Yes that is very effective. I did that a bunch. Need precise timing in a small area and your friction has to be calculated perfectly so as to not shock load the top and to be able to time it before the back swing. Its like hitting a home run when it happens.

The tree was a very large dbh silver maple. It had lots of mistletoe and die back. It appeared the top had broken out some years ago thus no central tip or rigging point. The major leads of concern were about 30' long and about 18 to 24" diameter. One lead was over a garage and the other across a fence and over some very nice dogwood trees and a garden. Several of the other leads were rotten and punky with lots of woodpecker holes. About 6' up the trunk was a cavity you could have filled with about 6 basket balls. There wasn't a whole lot of holding wood there.

We had no drop zone over the fence and a small drop in the customers lawn. The live leads were growing up higher than where the top broke out. Rigging choices and tip options were not good. Near horizontal angles on the climbing line with a really bad potential for swing. He had blocks on limbs on each side of the tree to "Share the load" He also used a ratchet strap to help reinforce 2 leads. There wasn't much concern for the "bend" on the trunk It was more the tension on the bad leads.
 
@Steve Connally; Wow, thanks for giving such a detailed answer. Much appreciated. It sounds like you are doing just about as well as one could hope for given the circumstances. Sounds like a really tough tree, what with all of the hollow space in the trunk and the deadwood everywhere.

If someone died and they made you king, how would you have handled it? Higher price quote to the customer, and use of a crane? Or are there some trees for which there is no good answer? I can see how it might be possible for a tree to be set back so far from an accessible road that even a crane would not reach. Just curious as to whether or not you think every tree has a way of being taken down safely, as long as people are willing to pay the cost of the gear and talent to take it down?

Thanks in advance for any answers you choose to give, and again for the ones already given.

Tim
 
Perfect crane job all day long. Great access and you could use a fairly small crane. Option b would be to have the homeowner take down some fence and run the bucket to it. Just a easy but not as quick.

I do think every tree has a way of being taken down safely. I do know there are situations where I am not the person with the knowledge to do it. When I had my own biz I would routinely walk away from trees that were out of my comfort range. Not saying I wouldn't tackle something just to expand my experience or expertise but I find it trouble some that there are bosses who would even consider asking a climber to risk his life over a buck. I think that's my biggest heartburn with my current gig. Now our relationship has grown a lot and he knows when to push and when not to. He also knows pretty well what my personal limits are and doesn't step on them. We have had a few years of growing pains to get where we are and a lot of days I've been sent home because I wouldn't "step up" and do the shit trees. I have also pushed myself beyond where I normally would based on some of the feedback from here. I consider myself a pretty decent tree guy. Heck I've been at it long enough but what I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt is what I don't know. That's dead trees and nasty storm work. There is always a way. I just wish I worked with someone I could learn from who does a ton of nasty trees. Take the crane class for instance. The big tree we did was dead from EAB. The dust from the chipper was awful. I was amazed at the comfort level all the pros had with that dead tree. I was also amazed at how structurally strong that tree still was. We did a dead oak with hypoxolon(sp?) the other day. I opted out due to how it looked from the ground. the other climber did it and the boss said "I don't blame you, I wouldn't climb it either". Came down like a dream. Not as bad as I thought. I may have learned a little there. 2 lessons came from that. 1. The tree was in pretty good condition compared to what I thought it would be. 2. What kind of person would make that statement then allow someone to climb it? Seems like the value of one life is less than the value of another.

Now remember, I am content where I work. Anxiously waiting for an opportunity but content. I have more to give than what this gig produces in terms of skill and quality workmanship. My opportunity to shine will come and I am trying really hard to still be alive to take advantage of it. I guess the bottom line is I have a line in the sand nobody crosses and I have learned to work within the known evils of my situation. Not every day is bad! Most are good. Except tomorrow. I have to go clean up 25 mature trees we dropped onto a wooded lot. Come to find out it was private property and somebody thought they could get paid and walk away with out getting caught. They got caught and now we are doing the same job twice. I mean how do you write a bid to do that and play dumb when you get called on it. Based on biz practices how do you stay afloat for 20 years?

Ahhhhhh feel better now
 
Steve Connally said:
Perfect crane job all day long. Great access and you could use a fairly small crane. Option b would be to have the homeowner take down some fence and run the bucket to it. Just a easy but not as quick.

I do think every tree has a way of being taken down safely. I do know there are situations where I am not the person with the knowledge to do it. When I had my own biz I would routinely walk away from trees that were out of my comfort range. Not saying I wouldn't tackle something just to expand my experience or expertise but I find it trouble some that there are bosses who would even consider asking a climber to risk his life over a buck. I think that's my biggest heartburn with my current gig. Now our relationship has grown a lot and he knows when to push and when not to. He also knows pretty well what my personal limits are and doesn't step on them. We have had a few years of growing pains to get where we are and a lot of days I've been sent home because I wouldn't "step up" and do the shit trees. I have also pushed myself beyond where I normally would based on some of the feedback from here. I consider myself a pretty decent tree guy. Heck I've been at it long enough but what I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt is what I don't know. That's dead trees and nasty storm work. There is always a way. I just wish I worked with someone I could learn from who does a ton of nasty trees. Take the crane class for instance. The big tree we did was dead from EAB. The dust from the chipper was awful. I was amazed at the comfort level all the pros had with that dead tree. I was also amazed at how structurally strong that tree still was. We did a dead oak with hypoxolon(sp?) the other day. I opted out due to how it looked from the ground. the other climber did it and the boss said "I don't blame you, I wouldn't climb it either". Came down like a dream. Not as bad as I thought. I may have learned a little there. 2 lessons came from that. 1. The tree was in pretty good condition compared to what I thought it would be. 2. What kind of person would make that statement then allow someone to climb it? Seems like the value of one life is less than the value of another.

Now remember, I am content where I work. Anxiously waiting for an opportunity but content. I have more to give than what this gig produces in terms of skill and quality workmanship. My opportunity to shine will come and I am trying really hard to still be alive to take advantage of it. I guess the bottom line is I have a line in the sand nobody crosses and I have learned to work within the known evils of my situation. Not every day is bad! Most are good. Except tomorrow. I have to go clean up 25 mature trees we dropped onto a wooded lot. Come to find out it was private property and somebody thought they could get paid and walk away with out getting caught. They got caught and now we are doing the same job twice. I mean how do you write a bid to do that and play dumb when you get called on it. Based on biz practices how do you stay afloat for 20 years?

Ahhhhhh feel better now
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Hey, Steve! First, I am remiss in not wishing you a speedy recovery; I hope your hands are feeling much better by now.

Thanks for expressing the opinions about how that job could have been done with a crane or a bucket. I guess your boss is afraid he'll lose the bid if he tries to charge for that stuff, and in so doing, makes life more risky for the men working for him. As to the question about him allowing someone else to climb a tree that he would not, maybe he thinks his climber is actually better and more skilled than he is himself, and so he lets his other climber decide what the other climber is comfortable with. If, however, the owner felt that guy was not as good a climber as the owner himself is, and that the guy is just stupid, I see your point.

It would be cool if you could hook up with a storm damaged tree removal expert, but I get the feeling those guys might be rare, due to how infrequently the big storms happen. My gut instinct tells me that the guys that do the nasty, dead trees and the storm damaged trees a lot would also be the "big iron" guys, who own their own cranes, like Paul Cox. Maybe that is the avenue you need to pursue. Look in the phone book for arb companies that advertise the fact that they use cranes and buckets all of the time. If the crane is theirs and already paid for, they would want to use it as much as possible to get it to earn its keep. They would likely want to be doing a higher volume of work, also, because of the speed with which things can be accomplished with a crane.

Maybe your area has no such players, but it might be worth a look. If you find one, sit in their "in" box until they give up and hire you.

Those are my stray thoughts. Thanks again for all of your great responses in this thread.

Tim
 
If you want to add more friction below a climbing hitch use a Munter on a pear shaped biner. It develops more friction than a figure eight and you don't have a single-use piece of gear on your harness
 
Go to your local natural food store and get Calendula Gel it is amazing for any kind of burn. You will get relief overnight. Gel not ointment. It really is a natural miracle remedy.
 
Dude as awful as it sounds I pop blisters with the smallest needle I can find and then just keep em clean. Melted my palms and tips down real bad one time, my skin was like hard plastic next to the most burn parts. I just kept them popped so they were not throbbing from pressure and i was back to work to next day. Just not climbing or running ropes
 
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