Lightning Protection in tree w cables and braces

Hey woodchuck dude, I'm cool with long threads too. I'm just personally not down with reinventing the wheel. If there's a competent booklet that explains what, where, when, why and how to do it, then there's no need to write it out step by step in here.

A really important factor in lightning protection systems, as in support systems is that you don't "set em' and forget em'" They require ongoing inspection and maintenance, to make sure that the conductors and the rest of the system are still intact and functional.
 
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i still think these systems are a waste of time and money . because i have seen lots of trees with these systems struck by lighting and the trees suffered and died so what was the point of these so called lightning protection systems ? huge lightning stress cracks and scars all the way down the tree . if someone else has had success please let us know . i am getting ready to remove a very large oak in this situation .

[/ QUOTE ]Systems need adjustment and maintenance. If you did not change the oil in your truck and the engine seized up, would that mean your truck was a waste of money?

Your interest is good--I encourage you to learn about these systems so you can sell the service of maintaining them and protecting trees, instead of just removing them.

If your oak has been struck, it might still be kept. Many are; see sidebar in the attached. It has pics of both kinds of fasteners, and advocates for the sturdier kind in the lower tree if not the whole tree.
 

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Guy not sure why you would think Arborbolts are sturdier than traditional drives ? Mixing them with each other would in my opinion be piontless. The Arborbolt is there to eliminate potential electrical diference between fasteners so mixing them would negate the benifit. So I would like to pose a direct question.
What would be the outcome if you install a traditional drive or drives into the tree alongside the down conductor (not bonded) and the system was subjected to a strike ?

The quote re systems being a waste of time ect is true they are a waste of time and money and no amount of servicing will help. If the job is not done properly in the first instance you are stuck with it. A properly installed system employing materials of adiquate spec i.e 32 strand not 14 and grounded to 10 ohms should take multiple hits for many years without damage to the tree. Yes the conductor will heat up, but by about 1 degree only.
 
ben may have retreated to his grotto with smeagle, but i'll reply anyway.

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Guy not sure why you would think Arborbolts are sturdier than traditional drives ?

[/ QUOTE ]I wish all questions were that easy. the arborbolt screws into a predrilled hole. it is quite vandalproof.
The regular fasteners are just nailed in. they bend and pull out under mild pressure, and the top clamp is tricky. i've seen conductors flapping in the breeze due to those fasteners failing. [ QUOTE ]

What would be the outcome if you install a traditional drive or drives into the tree alongside the down conductor (not bonded) and the system was subjected to a strike ?

[/ QUOTE ]maybe not such good things. maybe the A300 committee needs that input. When i replace embedded fastenrs i try to put in the new one right up against the old one to avoid the arcing issue. granted not a perfect solution, but i am not convinced that a system with arborbolts at the bottom and others above would be so horrible. seems to lack grounds for a legal spat.

but i am not an expert on electricity.
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most of ben's systems were in fast-growing adolescent sequoias. most of mine are in very old trees, so most of my systems are not likely to be embedded in my lifetime; maybe not my kid's either.
 
thanks benfuest for all your imput . i ask the homeowner if he knew when this system was installed . he said in the 1970's . i am sure things have changed since then . some are on oaks some on sycamores . some of the trees have grown over the system in certain areas . i am always trying to be a better man then the day before . thanks for helping me with your knowlegde .
 
i get what your saying guy . could not read your article very small hard to read . thanks for trying . i wish i could save this oak but at the base going up the tree it is starting to break down and hollow out you can see where bugs are entering . part of the right whole side is dead . the target below is a multi-million dollar home . last year part of tree branch broke and smashed there deck .


oh yea and by the way ceviarborist i am also against topping . turned down a job today .tried to warn them about it but would not listen . oh well take care .
 
Interesting situation, Just a tree guy. I'm curious. Did your client own the place when the system was originally installed? Did they share any information as to whether they'd had the lightning protection system maintained on an ongoing basis? If the tree had grown over the system, I'd think probably not.

With residential properties in the U.S. changing hands an average of every 7 years, a new owner might not have even been aware of the maintenance requirements for the system, and allowed it to fall into disrepair.

Now that so many county property appraisers keep property records available online, I'm thinking that I'll start checking the property database if I'm not able to contact a client to schedule maintenance, just to make sure that they haven't sold the property since my last visit.

You take care too. One of the coolest things about this business is that I wake up every day knowing that I'm bound to learn something new before I call it a day.
 
Dear Guy, Lets take it one step at a time nice and slow.

Arborbolt are pre drilled and DRIVEN not screwd into the tree and have been that way for the last four yesrs.

The primery function of the Arborbolt is to accomidate increntle growth indefinitly eliminating the requirement to re fit fasteners and therfor eliminating the issue related to potential electrical diference between fasteners.
I would be misleading my customers if I said and by the way they are quite vandalproof, If you wish to tell your customers they are then that is up to you. Personly I only telln them what I can subsantiat.
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Oops premiture send and computor shut down, I will try again and finish my posting.

I recomend you look at www.arborbolt.co.uk A picture of the product is there for you to see. Yes I agree tradition drives do fall out and conductors are left flaping in the wind yet you continue to use it ! that of course is up to you. Personaly I would find it a hard sell when I know the product/service I am supplying will fail.
The type of tree I work with is vast and veried. Oaks, Ash, Ceddor all sorts even Ginko. You will see on the web site the Salem Oak for example.
There exist in the American landscape many beautiful trees that we hope will live on for many years to come, same all around the world. I think the work we do today is testemont to our care and expertise. So when installing such hard where we become a part of that legasy. Ok so you said your systems are installed in very old trees so they are not likely to be inbeded in your life time. Is that not like saying by the time the problem surfaces I will be dead and burried !
Ansi standard folk are well aware of my thoughts on the subject, but of course it is up to them how they should wish to proced. All one can do is make reprosentation, provide the science and leave it at that.
By your own admision you are not an expert in the field of electricity, fare enough. Probably better to delegate the job to some one that does know what they are doing.
I recomend you read the info on the web site and get up to speed, should you disagree then by all means provide the counter to it.
To finish I would like to say I came to this forum in all inocents wishing to share my experiance and join the debate.
Your ref to Smeagle what ever that is, I dont know but I suspect not kind and the resort of a man strugling to hold his ground.
 
Thanks ben we do not differ by far at all.

"Ansi standard folk are well aware of my thoughts on the subject, but of course it is up to them how they should wish to proced. All one can do is make reprosentation, provide the science and leave it at that."

That's why I attached the form, so those comments could be registered. when the standard is revised they would be re-considered, and as one of those folk i can say they will be considered fairly.

Earlier you'd said the primary reason for arborbolts was arcing, now you say it's for stability; both seem accurate, both reasons that i promoted them. they are threaded, but driven now not screwed in? boy i am out of date.

I had not looked at your site since 2007 and will do so, at least before I sell the next system. Your spec of 32 strand seems excessive, that much I do know.

justa, you can adjust your screen display to read, or try the attached. If that system is 30+ years old and unmaintained no wonder it has problems. take some pics when you cut the oak down; it would be interesting to see that system--how far from the top the air terminals are, etc. also btw save the copper it may be worth selling
 

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Guy indeed the primery reason for Arborbolt is to eliminat the acring spark from one component to another, but stability ! I have re read the posting and do NOT see it any where.

Your reference to 32 strand being exsesive.....cast your mind back to BMP 1st ed and ANSI of the same time period. They bothe required the use of 32 strand down conductor. It was not until 2nd edition BMP and ANSI standard that the requirement was reduced to 14 strand. I like others have asked for and looked for the scientific evidence to support such a change, there is none.
The only benifit to instaler or client is one of cost.

So now you have a conductor not capapble of carying the sort of energy expected.
Earth terminations of uknown value.
Metalic conductive components empeded in trees not bonded.

Ask your self why the Independent Protection Co. of Goshen Indiana still promote 32 strand conductor, because it works.

Ask your self why you should have to buy expensive bonding calmps for support systems, when presumably all you need to do is rout the conductor close to or preferbly touching old, drives !

One of the reasons I like the subject is that it employs such things as "The 1st law of thermodynamics" The laws of physics apply to all components in a lightning protection system. We do not have the luxury of being selective.

I sell thousands of Arborbolts into the American market every year and am payed by organisations to educate already well educated arborists on the science and methodolagy of lightning protection and not because its cheep but because works. If Ansi worked and BMP worked then I would have been laughed all the way to the departure lounge.
 
my client said these systems were there when he purchase the home . the people before him had them installed . he said they told him the system was installed in the 1970's . there are many old homes around here . if you think about it pittsburgh is one of our oldest cities . there are many old towns surrounding it . the town where this tree is was a very wealthy town and still is . many very historical . i will try to get some pics for all you guys . my camera is not so great but let me see what i can do .
 
Dear Just a tree guy. sound realy interesting. wish I could see these systems, you say there are many. Old spec systems are very robust, and could well go on for some time to come.where the systems have been swollowed up does it look like the tree has been stiched together ?

There is a way of testing existing systems for effectiveness and some of your clients. may like to know, testing them is quite simple and good fun I do it quite a lot, gives peace of mind as it were and may well lead to additional works.

These old school systems, are tough and if the trees are showing sign of damage due to strikes then there is a problem most probably in the earth termination and that CAN be fixed.

Dont right off lightning protection because you see issues explore for solutions. It is a highly profitablle service and one that requires no heavy plant, chainsaws or chippers, plus you get to work on the finest of trees in peace and quiet. Reading my postings in this thread I would understand if you were to think I am some sort of standards assasin, I'm not I just think A300 Part 4 could should be better.
 
hello ben ! not all these trees have been hit with lightning . some look great you can just see where the tree grew over and the copper wire going into the ground . i would like to learn how to test these systems that sounds really interesting . as far as looking stitched together i guess some kinda do ( like included bark ) you do not seem like a standards assasin to me . im obviously learning these systems so i really do not know the standards, but i would think over kill would not hurt when it comes to lightning !
 
Hi Just a Tree Guy, If you need assistance Best contact me via the web site and I would be happy to assist.
Regards Ben
 
Hi just in case your looking I have found requests for assistance and Arborbolts in a mail box on this forum, sorry I did`t know I had a mail box so never checked it.

If you have questions or want to talk about orders then best to mail me on ben@arborbolt.co.uk
Thanks
 
I just wanted to say that Ben Fuest was kind enough to spend a great deal of time on the phone and in emails with me today, sharing a wealth of information, concerning lightning protection systems.

Ben was an extremely patient tutor, and shed a lot of light on aspects of lightning protection which I'd wondered about, but hadn't an opportunity to broach to anyone knowledgeable in the subject.

Thanks Ben!
 
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I just wanted to say that Ben Fuest was kind enough to spend a great deal of time on the phone and in emails with me today, sharing a wealth of information, concerning lightning protection systems.

Ben was an extremely patient tutor, and shed a lot of light on aspects of lightning protection which I'd wondered about, but hadn't an opportunity to broach to anyone knowledgeable in the subject.

Thanks Ben!

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I'll second that--spent some time in 2007 soaking in his experience. we can disagree about wire thickness and still have respect. when the cd comes out we can refer to that study and talk more then.
I just wish his stuff was on the shelves here. the standard fasteners are too fragile and too short for me; that much i am sure of.
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