Licensed Arborist,will it ever happen

A legitimatish arborist might be wary of regs, based on the regulation of other industries, and the outcomes.

Lots of CEU's cost $0.

Gorman I've testified against timber rustlers who escape judgments over and over by changing names and such. Enforcement seems weak; makes a mockery of the law.
 
I know I can get all my CEU's and then some by going to 1 conference a year. It's not much of a burden. i have a plethora of CEU's simply by going to events that I would go to anyway. Now, I just sign a sheet and voila, CEU's.
 
I know I can get all my CEU's and then some by going to 1 conference a year. It's not much of a burden. i have a plethora of CEU's simply by going to events that I would go to anyway. Now, I just sign a sheet and voila, CEU's.
In which case wouldn't it be just as easy then for bad arbos that know how to take a test to do and continue the same? Just asking a question by that, please don't think I'm being a smarta$&.
 
Let's be realistic.... Anybody can fluff the hours and take the CA exam. I am currently a tree climber specialist, buying my time to take my CA exam. I'm an honest hard working individual that wouldn't feel right getting certified without proper knowledge and experience. However for some it's "to hard" or "cost to much." To which I say BS
 
For some good arborists, it IS too hard, after multiple tries, to figure out the words in the tests.

At the end of talks sometimes I notice people slipping in the door and standing in back, just long enough to get the
CEU #. No system's perfect; some will break honor codes no matter what.
 
Thanks Guy, yes, I've noticed that as well, folks popping in just as I read off the code number for CEUs. I figure that either it is their loss, that they didn't hear our presentations, or that they know it all already. Folks routinely get state pesticide credits for my talks, even if my main point is that pesticides are likely not necessary or of value! In any event, it's not for me to judge.
When Al Shigo was asked about his opinion of certification, he'd reply "just look at who is doing the certifying" and clam up. I interpreted that as meaning what degree of confidence do you have in the governmental or technical group that is setting the bar.
I agree wholeheartedly that the self-taught and uncertified can be as effective as any and more effective than some who are certified. The value of certification to me as a consumer is that I might have some expectation (if not confidence) that the potential provider of service knows something about what he is doing. Not a ringing endorsement, perhaps, but something.
I also agree that figuring out the language of the test and of the instructional materials (even my own) can be tough. Sometimes I get sent certification questions after someone has questioned a call by the authorities...and sometimes the challenger is quite right. Our language is imperfect. I've just been back-and-forth on a presubmission review of an article on woundwood written by a friend and colleague and it is hard to simply express to a practitioner what we both have experienced. But we show stuff around and try to get input before we turn things in to publishers or test authorities. And sometimes we fall short!
 
For some good arborists, it IS too hard, after multiple tries, to figure out the words in the tests.

Wording can be confusing... What's wrong with "false crotch"? Are we trying to expunge the word 'crotch' from our industry? "False branch union" etc. I felt like it was a little confusing. 'Branch union' sounds more like it is referring to the way the branch is attached rather than what the crotch provides for rigging etc. Maybe it's just me but that was new to me. I understand it, but who uses the term "false branch union"?
 
"Folks routinely get state pesticide credits for my talks, even if my main point is that pesticides are likely not necessary or of value!" Kevin, isn't that a critical lesson for them? When I apply for these in most states it's difficult; they have their system. Maybe your USFS cred helps, but whatever, keep on!

I'm an above-average test-taker, but that doesn't mean I'm an above-average arborist. I commented on ~20% of the ?s in the BCMA pilot test; no idea how it looks now.
Using simpler language is a lesson some test-makers are slow to learn; those big words smell like college, and sound so authoritative! But it's not an easy job.

imo "Fork" is much more clear and descriptive than 'crotch' or 'branch union'. Or is it?
Alex Shigo writes in A New Tree Biology, “Topping is done internodal; proper crown reduction is done at nodes, or at crotches."
 
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In which case wouldn't it be just as easy then for bad arbos that know how to take a test to do and continue the same? Just asking a question by that, please don't think I'm being a smarta$&.
I don't disagree. In fact, that's the reason I gave myself for waiting so long. I finally decided that I could work to change the certification process for the better, or I could bitch and moan.
The reality I found once I immersed myself in that world and started going to conferences is that the vast majority of people I encountered were hard working, honest and intelligent individuals.
We complain that there are certified hacks and there are, but I found it to be a much smaller percentage than I had expected.
In the end, I found that my problems with certification had more to do with my own fear of failure and laziness than any real problems with the cert process. That's not to say there aren't problems, but they can't be corrected without input from those of us in the field.
 
I guess I have to wonder what a legitimate Arborists objection to licensing and/or certification might be? I know I waited a long time to get Certified. Looking back, my reasoning was silly and petty. Increasing certification and licensing rates helps our industry rather than hurts them. If the cost is the objection, I have to wonder, if they'll skip spending $500-$1000/year on a Cert, Licensing and CEU's, what other "unnecessary" expenses are they going to skip?

I think there are two different conversations happening here (or should be). Licensing... And Certification.
I totally agree that anyone capable of being certified by the ISA should take the test... It does nothing but better you and your knowledge. Thus giving you better opportunities in the industry while supporting it and allowing it to grow.
Licensing (Local, State or federal) is completely different. I do not agree with any kind of licensing. It was said already, the authorities cant even enforce our safety standards. Licensing would only put the smaller guys (that are legit) at a disadvantage. More overhead for licensing fees, another set of CEU's and probably some sort of lettering for your fleet would make them charge more to cover the expenses. And there would be no one there to enforce the rules. So all those hacks with the pick-up and saw will still be working undercutting the legit companies. And nothing would frustrate me more than paying to be licensed, and still getting beat up by the guy with no insurance, equipment, or education (not knowing what he is doing). Its bad enough some of giants in our area aren't being held to safety standards, and continue to kill and maim guy on a yearly basis. And they would have no problem paying for a license, thus making them legit.

Sorry for my rant. This is how I feel, I'm not asking anyone to agree with me and I don't want to argue with anyone.
 
In Maryland you are required to be licensed. We still have plenty of hacks but any jobs you are bidding for county, state or various cities require it. Its probably one of the older programs in the USA. I've had mine for 20 years.

And Maryland is exactly why I am against licensing. The last time I checked, albeit a couple years ago now, as a 20 year tree service owner, BCMA, CTW and CTSP Maryland would not grant me a license unless I first worked for a Maryland licensed arborist for a substantial period of time.

That, to me, has absolutely nothing to do with consumer protection, competency and professionalism and has everything to do with cronyism and corruption for the purpose of state sponsored monopolies.

I think JeffC and FireAx are right on track though.
 
The certification legitimizes the profession. Without it, we are all the same, with no way for the consumer to differentiate. That doesn't mean that a big company with a bad record can't masquerade with a CA on staff, but it is a good benchmark. Look at civil engineering firms; they often have multiple registered Professional Engineers (a credential requiring testing and CEU's) on staff, but will have interns do the work only to be 'reviewed' by a PE. I'd still rather have that firm design a bridge than an individual with no certification who says he's a good engineer.
 
Look at civil engineering firms; they often have multiple registered Professional Engineers (a credential requiring testing and CEU's) on staff, but will have interns do the work only to be 'reviewed' by a PE.

Tom, I am a civil engineer (the Great Recession made me into a part time engineer, part time tree climber) and the firm I work for employs both licensed Professional Engineers (PE) and non-licensed. We all split up the work load based on time availability and personal skills/strengths, not on licensed/non-licensed. Regardless of whom does the work, the firm's Principal and owner is the only PE who signs the outgoing plans, therefore all liability is assumed by him and the firm. If one of the PE employees were to sign the plans, he personally would assume the liability.

Likewise, in Connecticut, non-licensed tree workers may perform tree work, as long as they are working under the "direct supervision" of a Licensed Arborist with clearly written instructions on what to do and what not to do.
 
I've heard many good arguments against licensing, but I feel the pros outweigh the cons in our situation in NJ. This license will work with ISA certifications and not opposing them. The ceu's will be good for both. The one thing different about this is that it will require proper documentation as a proof of suitable insurance and workers compensation. This will help keep the playing field level for all. I'm all for it if it is enforced properly.
 
I've heard many good arguments against licensing, but I feel the pros outweigh the cons in our situation in NJ. This license will work with ISA certifications and not opposing them. The ceu's will be good for both. The one thing different about this is that it will require proper documentation as a proof of suitable insurance and workers compensation. This will help keep the playing field level for all. I'm all for it if it is enforced properly.
What if someone wishes to remain licensed but is in another line of work? Can they reinstate license later if they keep up ceu's but lapse in insurance?
 
Im all for licensing and having different levels of license. People that are more experienced/educated should be recognized by the public.
 
Great discussion. I have been active in licensing discussions in Austin TX for a number of years, and also part of a group of CAs that have been discussing state wide licensing. While many of us would really like to see the better consumer protection and differentiation between "good" and "bad" companies that you think licensing might help bring about, we have come to the conclusion that the success of licensing really pivots on execution and enforcement by the government agency. Our city forestry department has said privately they want no part of enforcing licensing, as they can't even fully enforce things they already oversee, like tree preservation.

And so we really don't see it happening in Austin. As for Texas as a whole, well, I think most of you know what it's like here. The chance of any consumer or environmental protection happening here, especially if it impedes anyone's chance to make a buck, is about ZERO.

Hats off to city of San Antonio for putting a licensing requirement in place. However, many arborists in the Austin area have also seen locally based tree care restrictions back fire. Two small (wealthy) towns adjacent to Austin passed rules that were not science-based, theoretically to prevent the spread of disease, and the result has been that the best arborists in our area prefer not to work in those towns. Point being, if licensing is to be done, competent arborists MUST be involved, or the result will be sh*t.
 

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