Here is a little story I would like to share.....The other day my friend, a landscaper calls me in the middle of a mulch job he was doing because the neighbor came over and informed him, in front of his customer, that he was installing the mulch incorrectly. He was mounding about three inches of mulch right up against the bases of the trees and shrubs in the planting beds. He replied with " I have been doing this for years, have worked for several landscape companies and this is industry standard" He called me to reinforce his position which I obviously did not and our conversation ended with him saying he has never had any complaints. I thought it showed why arborists should be doing more "landscape" activities but why we can not compete with guys who do things to "industry standards"
Landscapers and mulch!!!!
- Thread starter mattbc
- Start date
- Location
- Watertown, WI
I'll throw 3 inches in the trees bed at planting, but put maybe an inch at the base for about a 1.5 foot diameter ring around the trunk itself. have not seen any effects of going 3 inches in shrub beds.
chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
Yup, I see it all the time and it makes me really angry. I just try to inform people as to the correct way to install mulch.
Most landscrapers don't give a crap, but some who are trained nurserymen know the correct methods.
Most landscrapers don't give a crap, but some who are trained nurserymen know the correct methods.
My pet peeve is not only the mulch, but when the landscapers first put down nursery cloth or plastic (to keep the weeds down ??), put mulch on top and then walk away. Then the trees 10 - 12 years later, the trees are under stress and and the customer has spent all this money and now they have to remove all this black garbage. Then I am left to explain why and how all this is affecting their trees to the customer.
robinia
Participating member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
This is a timely thread - I just wrote a nasty letter to the local paper about this topic!
http://news.guelphmercury.com/Opinions/LettertotheEditor/article/630391
It got edited down; they basically removed the part where I suggested the local landscapers are incompetent and thier clients should be questioning thier horticultural credentials.
Always making friends!
http://news.guelphmercury.com/Opinions/LettertotheEditor/article/630391
It got edited down; they basically removed the part where I suggested the local landscapers are incompetent and thier clients should be questioning thier horticultural credentials.
Always making friends!
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
My pet peeve is not only the mulch, but when the landscapers first put down nursery cloth or plastic (to keep the weeds down ??), put mulch on top and then walk away. Then the trees 10 - 12 years later, the trees are under stress and and the customer has spent all this money and now they have to remove all this black garbage. Then I am left to explain why and how all this is affecting their trees to the customer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly plastic is bad. By nursery cloth, what do you mean? Landscaping fabric that is permeable?
My pet peeve is not only the mulch, but when the landscapers first put down nursery cloth or plastic (to keep the weeds down ??), put mulch on top and then walk away. Then the trees 10 - 12 years later, the trees are under stress and and the customer has spent all this money and now they have to remove all this black garbage. Then I am left to explain why and how all this is affecting their trees to the customer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly plastic is bad. By nursery cloth, what do you mean? Landscaping fabric that is permeable?
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
mulch mounded on the trunk can cause trunk rot and harbor dangerous organisms.
I agree with 3" around the tree, about 1" near the trunk.
And NO organic mulch should be put over a landscape fabric. As it breaks down, it will a. be a great weed bed b. keep amazing organic material out of the soil c. suffocating the roots.
I agree with 3" around the tree, about 1" near the trunk.
And NO organic mulch should be put over a landscape fabric. As it breaks down, it will a. be a great weed bed b. keep amazing organic material out of the soil c. suffocating the roots.
mdvaden
Participating member
- Location
- Beaverton. Oregon
[ QUOTE ]
Here is a little story I would like to share.....The other day my friend, a landscaper calls me in the middle of a mulch job he was doing because the neighbor came over and informed him, in front of his customer, that he was installing the mulch incorrectly. He was mounding about three inches of mulch right up against the bases of the trees and shrubs in the planting beds. He replied with " I have been doing this for years, have worked for several landscape companies and this is industry standard" He called me to reinforce his position which I obviously did not and our conversation ended with him saying he has never had any complaints. I thought it showed why arborists should be doing more "landscape" activities but why we can not compete with guys who do things to "industry standards"
[/ QUOTE ]
I find that its more a matter of just getting the job done right. I've seen just as many arborists sticking their noses into tree work, pruning or landscape modifications, when they have little idea how it affects the plant material besides the trees.
One thing that is a plus here near Portland, is that an arborist is teaching at our local college landscape program, and arboriculture is at least 2 full classes, and several more classes if the ID courses are included too.
From what I've seen, I think that the landscape designers are the ones who underestimate the need for tree knowledge even more than the landscapers.
Many landscape contractors are very good here in Oregon. Most have had to pass a test that's an all day affair. I'd say that its the landscape maintenance category where there are even more ignorant workers or owners.
Here is a little story I would like to share.....The other day my friend, a landscaper calls me in the middle of a mulch job he was doing because the neighbor came over and informed him, in front of his customer, that he was installing the mulch incorrectly. He was mounding about three inches of mulch right up against the bases of the trees and shrubs in the planting beds. He replied with " I have been doing this for years, have worked for several landscape companies and this is industry standard" He called me to reinforce his position which I obviously did not and our conversation ended with him saying he has never had any complaints. I thought it showed why arborists should be doing more "landscape" activities but why we can not compete with guys who do things to "industry standards"
[/ QUOTE ]
I find that its more a matter of just getting the job done right. I've seen just as many arborists sticking their noses into tree work, pruning or landscape modifications, when they have little idea how it affects the plant material besides the trees.
One thing that is a plus here near Portland, is that an arborist is teaching at our local college landscape program, and arboriculture is at least 2 full classes, and several more classes if the ID courses are included too.
From what I've seen, I think that the landscape designers are the ones who underestimate the need for tree knowledge even more than the landscapers.
Many landscape contractors are very good here in Oregon. Most have had to pass a test that's an all day affair. I'd say that its the landscape maintenance category where there are even more ignorant workers or owners.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
[ QUOTE ]
I'll throw 3 inches in the trees bed at planting, but put maybe an inch at the base for about a 1.5 foot diameter ring around the trunk itself. have not seen any effects of going 3 inches in shrub beds.
[/ QUOTE ]Mulch should not touch the stems of any woody plant. Azaleas etc get root rot down here from overmulching, and die.
If you ain't seen it yet, maybe you're not looking?
I'll throw 3 inches in the trees bed at planting, but put maybe an inch at the base for about a 1.5 foot diameter ring around the trunk itself. have not seen any effects of going 3 inches in shrub beds.
[/ QUOTE ]Mulch should not touch the stems of any woody plant. Azaleas etc get root rot down here from overmulching, and die.
If you ain't seen it yet, maybe you're not looking?
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
I figured that landscape fabric that is porous would allow the broken down organics to wash/ leach through the weed barrier to the soil, over time. Do others disagree? Clearly, I'm not talking about sheet plastic that some people seem to like to put down before adding loads of topsoil, or that others put on top of the soil, under the mulch.
Are you talking about the landscape cloth that I see by new roadsides near wetlands? This is staked vertically. This seems to be used as a filter to keep large particulates out of sensitive areas. No problem with that. These are eventually removed after construction is completed. I have a problem with plastics permeable or not around trees and roots that will never compost and will therefore always be a problem.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My pet peeve is not only the mulch, but when the landscapers first put down nursery cloth or plastic (to keep the weeds down ??), put mulch on top and then walk away. Then the trees 10 - 12 years later, the trees are under stress and and the customer has spent all this money and now they have to remove all this black garbage. Then I am left to explain why and how all this is affecting their trees to the customer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly plastic is bad. By nursery cloth, what do you mean? Landscaping fabric that is permeable?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes!
[ QUOTE ]
My pet peeve is not only the mulch, but when the landscapers first put down nursery cloth or plastic (to keep the weeds down ??), put mulch on top and then walk away. Then the trees 10 - 12 years later, the trees are under stress and and the customer has spent all this money and now they have to remove all this black garbage. Then I am left to explain why and how all this is affecting their trees to the customer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly plastic is bad. By nursery cloth, what do you mean? Landscaping fabric that is permeable?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes!
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
The problem with landscape cloth isn't just permeability but the fact that as the tree grows it tightens around the stem and can girdle the tree.
I wish it was ONLY 3" around here, most of the mulch I see in developments is 6" - 16" high in a volcano configuration. I'm really not all that fond of digging out flares and it seems like I do more than half of'em for free because I just can't bear to see it. Landscape fabric is just another hassle but I get lots of wire baskets, nylon webbing and cord too.
Maybe a guy running the landscape crew is trained but the ones doing the actual work have no idea how to correctly plant a tree, nobody bothers to train'em since half the time they picked'em up at the gas station on the way in.
Industry standard? Show'em the ISA BMP on planting, it's based on the ANSI A300 standards in daily tree care practice. Then ask them exactly WHAT industry standard they're referring to.
I wish it was ONLY 3" around here, most of the mulch I see in developments is 6" - 16" high in a volcano configuration. I'm really not all that fond of digging out flares and it seems like I do more than half of'em for free because I just can't bear to see it. Landscape fabric is just another hassle but I get lots of wire baskets, nylon webbing and cord too.
Maybe a guy running the landscape crew is trained but the ones doing the actual work have no idea how to correctly plant a tree, nobody bothers to train'em since half the time they picked'em up at the gas station on the way in.
Industry standard? Show'em the ISA BMP on planting, it's based on the ANSI A300 standards in daily tree care practice. Then ask them exactly WHAT industry standard they're referring to.
mdvaden
Participating member
- Location
- Beaverton. Oregon
The main use I see for landscape weed fabric is a way to store garbage under the mulch. In this area, is does not stop many weeds. Seeds still land on the surface and germinate anyway.
I use it under gravel paths and the like sometimes, to separate soil from gravel. Even then, I see weeds growing in the gravel.
For something like horsetail, I'd consider using it in some patches, then pulling it up in a few years if the horsetail happen to expire beneath.
I use it under gravel paths and the like sometimes, to separate soil from gravel. Even then, I see weeds growing in the gravel.
For something like horsetail, I'd consider using it in some patches, then pulling it up in a few years if the horsetail happen to expire beneath.
- Location
- east coast
Personally I think landscape fabric below mulch is garbage, it will keep the weeds from growing for the first year but after that it becomes harder to pull weeds when they start growing in the fabric. The only place I used fabric is when I placed rocks by my garage and didn't want the soil and rocks mixing. I've been seeing more mulch volcano's lately, one that stands out is in a shopping center right around the corner that is a good 12-16" of mulch under the base of the tree's. I'll try to get a pic the next time I drive by, it's pretty sad what they did because they will end up losing 10-15 plum tree's in the next couple years at the rate they are going.
[ QUOTE ]
I figured that landscape fabric that is porous would allow the broken down organics to wash/ leach through the weed barrier to the soil, over time. Do others disagree?
[/ QUOTE ]
Landscape fabric, though porous, will create an interface that completely prevents organic material reaching the soil below.
Though this is documented by others, we have proved it to our satisfaction at our own house. Ten years of decomposing organic mulch (whole tree chips), pull up the weed fabric and nothing has mixed within the soil.
Soil in an adjacent area of the garden, same time frame, same aspect and OM but minus the landscape fabric, totally different results. Rich, black soil, lots of worms and bioactivity.
Dave
I figured that landscape fabric that is porous would allow the broken down organics to wash/ leach through the weed barrier to the soil, over time. Do others disagree?
[/ QUOTE ]
Landscape fabric, though porous, will create an interface that completely prevents organic material reaching the soil below.
Though this is documented by others, we have proved it to our satisfaction at our own house. Ten years of decomposing organic mulch (whole tree chips), pull up the weed fabric and nothing has mixed within the soil.
Soil in an adjacent area of the garden, same time frame, same aspect and OM but minus the landscape fabric, totally different results. Rich, black soil, lots of worms and bioactivity.
Dave
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I figured that landscape fabric that is porous would allow the broken down organics to wash/ leach through the weed barrier to the soil, over time. Do others disagree?
[/ QUOTE ]
Landscape fabric, though porous, will create an interface that completely prevents organic material reaching the soil below.
Though this is documented by others, we have proved it to our satisfaction at our own house. Ten years of decomposing organic mulch (whole tree chips), pull up the weed fabric and nothing has mixed within the soil.
Soil in an adjacent area of the garden, same time frame, same aspect and OM but minus the landscape fabric, totally different results. Rich, black soil, lots of worms and bioactivity.
We usually use it at our house where we have wood chips paths to the garden, and in the garden, and to keep the weeds from growing up from underneath our new raised beds.
Dave
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks Dave for a side by side, apples to apples comparison.
[ QUOTE ]
I figured that landscape fabric that is porous would allow the broken down organics to wash/ leach through the weed barrier to the soil, over time. Do others disagree?
[/ QUOTE ]
Landscape fabric, though porous, will create an interface that completely prevents organic material reaching the soil below.
Though this is documented by others, we have proved it to our satisfaction at our own house. Ten years of decomposing organic mulch (whole tree chips), pull up the weed fabric and nothing has mixed within the soil.
Soil in an adjacent area of the garden, same time frame, same aspect and OM but minus the landscape fabric, totally different results. Rich, black soil, lots of worms and bioactivity.
We usually use it at our house where we have wood chips paths to the garden, and in the garden, and to keep the weeds from growing up from underneath our new raised beds.
Dave
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks Dave for a side by side, apples to apples comparison.
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I figured that landscape fabric that is porous would allow the broken down organics to wash/ leach through the weed barrier to the soil, over time. Do others disagree?
[/ QUOTE ]
Landscape fabric, though porous, will create an interface that completely prevents organic material reaching the soil below.
Though this is documented by others, we have proved it to our satisfaction at our own house. Ten years of decomposing organic mulch (whole tree chips), pull up the weed fabric and nothing has mixed within the soil.
Soil in an adjacent area of the garden, same time frame, same aspect and OM but minus the landscape fabric, totally different results. Rich, black soil, lots of worms and bioactivity.
Dave
[/ QUOTE ]
quoted for truth. You're letting organic mulch break down onto a nice barrier where weeds can grow beautifully in rich soil without competition with the tree, while the tree misses out on all the benefits.
Landscape fabric should ONLY be used with inorganic mulch, if ever.
[ QUOTE ]
I figured that landscape fabric that is porous would allow the broken down organics to wash/ leach through the weed barrier to the soil, over time. Do others disagree?
[/ QUOTE ]
Landscape fabric, though porous, will create an interface that completely prevents organic material reaching the soil below.
Though this is documented by others, we have proved it to our satisfaction at our own house. Ten years of decomposing organic mulch (whole tree chips), pull up the weed fabric and nothing has mixed within the soil.
Soil in an adjacent area of the garden, same time frame, same aspect and OM but minus the landscape fabric, totally different results. Rich, black soil, lots of worms and bioactivity.
Dave
[/ QUOTE ]
quoted for truth. You're letting organic mulch break down onto a nice barrier where weeds can grow beautifully in rich soil without competition with the tree, while the tree misses out on all the benefits.
Landscape fabric should ONLY be used with inorganic mulch, if ever.
mdvaden
Participating member
- Location
- Beaverton. Oregon
[ QUOTE ]
Landscape fabric, though porous, will create an interface that completely prevents organic material reaching the soil below.
Dave
[/ QUOTE ]
So far, I haven't pulled up landscape fabric that had mulch over it, to check the color and condition of the soil beneath, so I can't say much about that part.
Will have to keep an eye out for something comparable to look at this spring.
Landscape fabric, though porous, will create an interface that completely prevents organic material reaching the soil below.
Dave
[/ QUOTE ]
So far, I haven't pulled up landscape fabric that had mulch over it, to check the color and condition of the soil beneath, so I can't say much about that part.
Will have to keep an eye out for something comparable to look at this spring.
SingleJack
Participating member
- Location
- W MD
QUESTION:
I see a lot of "Master Gardeners" (state certified) using newspaper under mulch instead of landscape fabric. The claim is that the paper and the ink are (now) both bio-degradeable and will break down over time and control weeds. However, it <u>seems</u> newspaper is a <u>semi</u>-permeable barrier that, until that "breakdown" occurs (years?), the short term could result is some very similar problems as those caused by landscape fabric.
So, what is the <u>science</u> and/or opinion about newspaper under mulch???
I see a lot of "Master Gardeners" (state certified) using newspaper under mulch instead of landscape fabric. The claim is that the paper and the ink are (now) both bio-degradeable and will break down over time and control weeds. However, it <u>seems</u> newspaper is a <u>semi</u>-permeable barrier that, until that "breakdown" occurs (years?), the short term could result is some very similar problems as those caused by landscape fabric.
So, what is the <u>science</u> and/or opinion about newspaper under mulch???
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