Jepson's Buntline?

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Jepson\'s Buntline?

On page 31 of Jeff Jepson's The Treeclimbers Companion he states,

"the Buntline hitch is an excellent choice for attaching the climbing line or personal lanyard to a rope snap or carabiner"

Are any of you people who ain't climbing on spliced eye rope actually using this knot?

I have always used a Bowline for this purpose, In my humble opinion the bowline is a far better knot than the Buntline.
It is just a more perfect knot - you can see it makes sense.

Where as the Buntline is just a couple of half hitches combined with an overhand knot.

Oh and just for the record I would never put a YOSEMITE tie off into a Bowline - it ruins the perfect structure of the knot.

As well as creating the risk of tieing into the wrong loop in the knot.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

Usually climb on spliced end rope but when using the other end of the rope I´ve stopped useing the bowline for two reasons. a, in an unfocused moment one can clip into the wrong loop in an unperfect bowline, b) there is a theoretical possibility that it can roll out. This leaves me, in my opinion, with two options; double 8 or fishermans noose. The double 8 is easy to tie and untie and the fishermans noose is a cinching knot. So when it is necessary to tie and untie during ascending I use double 8, Once established an anchorpoint I use a fishermans noose when working.
Svein
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

the bowline is not a chinching knot.... thus not even on the list of choices to use. have you ever seen a bowline roll into a slip knot?

try a fishermans, it is easier to tie and untie, and it is a chinching knot.


the only way that you should ever use a bowline to attach to hardware is: tie it with a long loop and then girth hitch that around the hardware.

you will find this choice very bulky(like my cellphone 10 years ago) and soon you will start tieing a better knot for this application.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

[ QUOTE ]
the bowline is not a cinching knot.... thus not even on the list of choices to use. have you ever seen a bowline roll into a slip knot?

try a fishermans, it is easier to tie and untie, and it is a cinching knot.


the only way that you should ever use a bowline to attach to hardware is: tie it with a long loop and then girth hitch that around the hardware.

you will find this choice very bulky(like my cellphone 10 years ago) and soon you will start tieing a better knot for this application.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes the Buntline will cinch up, yes the Double Fisherman's end loop will cinch up.

The double figure 8 as a endline attachment point most commonly used by the rockclimbers and rescue workers does not cinch up - does that make it inferior?

I like the fact the bowline does not cinch up, it means I can remove my carabiner before I pull the rope back through a tight branch union then re attach easily. It is also easy to tie and untie. Unlike the Doub. Fish. loop

The choking double fisherman's loop is better than the Buntline for sure, the buntline just looks weak - easily undone.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

[ QUOTE ]
a, in an unfocused moment one can clip into the wrong loop in an unperfect bowline, b) there is a theoretical possibility that it can roll out.
Svein

[/ QUOTE ]

1st point- not if it is tied dressed and set properly I never tie an unperfect bowline. And never with a Yosemite tie off which is a ridiculous idea anyway.

2nd point - If a Bowline is tied correctly there no possibility of it ever rolling out.

The bowline is by a long way the best knot ever invented - It is perfect when used in the correct application.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

[ QUOTE ]
what about the ANSI standards? what about having a captive piece of hardware? what about side loading the biner?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you followed the ANSI standards you not have gone near that splitting oak with a rope and saddle.

I do have a captive piece of hardware it is called a carabiner which is connected to a climbing rope using an end line knot called a bowline.

How on earth are you ever going to create enough side loading to cause a carabiner to fail?

Jump off the Eiffel Tower connected to a steel cable shock loading the cable after a 500ft drop!

My carabiners are rated at 10Kn across the gate!
And the loop of the bowline is too small to allow it to slip round the carabiner onto the gate.

anyone using the Buntline.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

That is an excellent site, I've seen the Anchor Hitch(Jepson) used by treeclimbers in the past - still something about it I dont like though, The Anchor and the Buntline dont have the same locking mechanism as the Bowline.....

and the figure 8 is too bulky for pulling back through tight branch unions.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

I have been using the buntline hitch for the past 4-5 yrs to tie in with. I've never seen it move once set. It ties and unties easier than a scaffold knot (half a double fisherman's). It is essentially a clove hitch tied back to itself. I have read that the buntline was used by sailors to tie rigging lines to their sails. The knot was preferred for this application because could stand being constantly loaded and unloaded and not come untied such as the bowline will.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

The Yosemite Bowline is a very strong and secure method of tying a bowline - but only when its done like this, rather than as illusrated in 'On Rope':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_bowline

The Scaffold knot is far more secure than either the Bowline or Buntline. It is quick and easy to tie and untie, stronger than a bowline, and prevents a krab from rotating:

http://www.treemettlenexus.com/class1.html

I wouldn't recommend the buntline for life support, but only because it is too easy to loosen. Great for rigging with a long tail for security.

I wouldn't recommend a Bowline as an end line termination when climbing with karabiners, because the loop can open the gate and/or cross load the karabiner; it is perfectly possible to generate sufficient force to cause a cross loaded krab to fail with DdRT, with as little as 50cm of slack and a slip.
cool.gif
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

[ QUOTE ]
I have been using the buntline hitch for the past 4-5 yrs to tie in with. I've never seen it move once set. It ties and unties easier than a scaffold knot (half a double fisherman's). It is essentially a clove hitch tied back to itself. I have read that the buntline was used by sailors to tie rigging lines to their sails. The knot was preferred for this application because could stand being constantly loaded and unloaded and not come untied such as the bowline will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting......

The Buntline and the Anchor do tie and untie easier than a Scaffold, maybe thats telling you something?

I would use the Scaffold before the Buntline and Anchor

Sounds like your happy with the old sailor's Buntline.

When I climb on the Bowline it is constantly being loaded and unloaded. I have never in the last 10 years climbing 4/5 days a week seen the Bowline come loose.

Can anyone convince me that using the Bowline as an end line attachment point is a bad idea?
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

"My carabiners are rated 10kN across the gate" So are mine, but thats outwards pressure, inwards they probably can take between 0,07 to 0,1kN. Something to think about?
Yes, the 8 is bulky and I untie it, I guess its just a splice end that is immune to get stuck. I too like the bowline, its a great knot for its purpose in my case thet is for rigging.
Svein
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

[ QUOTE ]
1.The Yosemite Bowline is a very strong and secure method of tying a bowline - but only when its done like this, rather than as illusrated in 'On Rope':

2.The Scaffold knot is far more secure than either the Bowline or Buntline. It is quick and easy to tie and untie, stronger than a bowline, and prevents a krab from rotating:

3.Great for rigging with a long tail for security.

4.I wouldn't recommend a Bowline as an end line termination when climbing with karabiners, because the loop can open the gate and/or cross load the karabiner; it is perfectly possible to generate sufficient force to cause a cross loaded krab to fail with DdRT, with as little as 50cm of slack and a slip.
cool.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Point 1. The Yosemite is the main cause of the bowline coming loose and being less than efficient as a life support knot regardless of the version in 'On Rope' or the Wiki version.

Point 2. Yes I agree with all these points - that is why I decided a couple of months ago to switch to the Scaffold for end line termination as well as tying end line knots for my friction hitch to carabiner.

Point 3. Yes great for rigging.


Point 4 True to a point but untrue if you use a captive eye carabiner.
I do not agree with your last statement - your talking about a fall of 1 metre generating enough force to cause a carabiner to fail - what type of carabiners are you talking about? 6Kn or 10kn across the gate?

The human skeleton would probably fail first anyway.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

[ QUOTE ]
Can anyone convince me that using the Bowline as an end line attachment point is a bad idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably grover, but not through the internet.

There are many variables, depends on the rope, karabiner and technique.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

[ QUOTE ]
inwards they probably can take between 0,07 to 0,1kN. Something to think about?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, not at all as I am never applying inwards pressure to the carabiner.

Applying a outward force inwards towards the centre of the carabiner is not happening when you climb.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

[ QUOTE ]

Probably grover, but not through the internet.

There are many variables, depends on the rope, karabiner and technique.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok Laz2, lets give it a try.

Carabiner - lets say the climber you are teaching to climb is using a captive eye carabiner - so we have eliminated the loop running round and tampering with the gate. We have also eliminated the risk of crossloading.

Happy?

Rope - Lets say the climber uses New England Hi Vee and Samson Blue Streak - both excellent 16 strand very knotable ropes. Your climber never uses Kernmantle, ever.

Happy?

Technique - Lets say you only teach your climber the Bowline as an end line attachment knot without the ridiculous and dangerous Yosemite tie off.
This knot is tied, dressed and set with so that it is extremely tight and each time weight is applied to the knot it gets tighter.
Laz2 - Please go and get some 16 strand rope, tie a bowline tightly and securely.....now look at it and tell me this knot is no good as a life supporting end line knot.

Happy?
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1.The Yosemite Bowline is a very strong and secure method of tying a bowline - but only when its done like this, rather than as illusrated in 'On Rope':

2.The Scaffold knot is far more secure than either the Bowline or Buntline. It is quick and easy to tie and untie, stronger than a bowline, and prevents a krab from rotating:

3.Great for rigging with a long tail for security.

4.I wouldn't recommend a Bowline as an end line termination when climbing with karabiners, because the loop can open the gate and/or cross load the karabiner; it is perfectly possible to generate sufficient force to cause a cross loaded krab to fail with DdRT, with as little as 50cm of slack and a slip.
cool.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Point 1. The Yosemite is the main cause of the bowline coming loose and being less than efficient as a life support knot regardless of the version in 'On Rope' or the Wiki version.

Point 2. Yes I agree with all these points - that is why I decided a couple of months ago to switch to the Scaffold for end line termination as well as tying end line knots for my friction hitch to carabiner.

Point 3. True to a point but untrue if you use a captive eye carabiner.
I do not agree with your last statement - your talking about a fall of 1 metre generating enough force to cause a carabiner to fail - what type of carabiners are you talking about? 6Kn or 10kn across the gate?

The human skeleton would probably fail first anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point 1: I have never experienced a yosemite bowline come loose to the point of being a danger in rigging, tree climbing or rock climbing. Question of tie dress and set. IMO.

Point 2: Glad we agree on something.
cool.gif


Point 3: A buntline is easy to loosen no matter what its tied to or what its used for. Its why I like it for rigging. Leaving a long tail gives room for a little loosening. I won't take the risk when mixing it with the tree when climbing.

Point 4: In tests I ran with a DdRT, a drop of 50cm created forces of between 1000kg to 1200kg. It isn't clear if this might kill you, so I wouldn't give up on my life to a cross loaded krab. It is the way these forces coincide that creates the danger often. One accident I was asked to comment on was from a climber whose bowline was holding on the gate (am'd ball lock). He fell and swung toward the trunk. The trunk punched the gate inwards. The bowline exited the krab. He was saved 15ft from the ground when his saw caught in a fork. The branch broke and he still had bad injuries when he gounded.

My advice is based on tests and experience. Doesn't mean I want everyone to do it my way. Your initial post asked for opinion and this is mine. I really don't have the time to get into a discussion about it. FWIW, I do disagree that the Yosemite tie off is inherently dangerous.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

ANSI Z133.1 -2006

8.1.3 Climbing lines used in a split-tail system and split-tails shall be terminated with an eye splice or a
knot that interfaces appropriately with the connecting link that it is attached to. The termination knot
selected shall remain secure under normal loading and unloading. When using a carabiner without a
captive eye, the knot or eye splice shall cinch in place to prevent the accidental opening and/or sideloading
of the carabiner.
 
Re: Jepson\'s Buntline?

[ QUOTE ]

1. I have never experienced a yosemite bowline come loose in tree climbing or rock climbing. Question of tie dress and set. IMO.

2. One accident I was asked to comment on was from a climber whose bowline was holding on the gate (am'd ball lock). He fell and swung toward the trunk. The trunk punched the gate inwards. The bowline exited the krab. He was saved 15ft from the ground when his saw caught in a fork. The branch broke and he still had bad injuries when he gounded.

3.I do disagree that the Yosemite tie off is inherently dangerous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Laz2, dont worry about not having enough time, it all relative. Just remember procrastination is the thief of time. This is important. You had enough time to put a bloody graemlin in the last post.

Point 1 Yes, but you know people who have experienced this. Surely?

Point 2 That was a carabiner issue, if they had been using a captive eye then it would never had happened. Surely?
Bet he was happy he never used one of those breakaway lanyards for saws.

Point 3 The Yosemite tie off is inherently dangerous even if it is tied dressed and set properly - just ask the guys that have fallen out of trees because of this knot.
The Yosemite turns the Bowline into an imperfect knot.
It is just not needed.
 
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