I've never been a fan of new standards but.......

southsoundtree said:
Praise the Lord for letting that guy cut the rope.

Clearly putting the rope down low was the real problem.

Just put everything that shouldn't be cut at 10'.

Problem solved.

Not sure how you're going to get anything done with every person and piece of gear at 10', but it will surely get to the root of the problem.


That guy should be immediately fired! Someone with that little brain function shouldn't be on a tree site.
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Man your a master baiter.. how obvious do you need to make your self ..How would you feel if someone did that to your lifeline? Would you hope the severed it completly so you would fall instead of be thankful you get to go home? Is the aim of your post to make others feel stupid who aren't on here to defend thier actions , mistskes? Or make yourself feel cool ,Tell me how that works for you..See how that shit rolls down hill.. really raising the bar of professionalism, not your lowly little base tie aren't ya..? Why do you put someone down for possible lack of training, having a bad moment, or possibly slipped or tripped on a some thing with a revved up chainsaw and ..i know i know you dont make mistakes like that or ever have a rough day with other shit on your brain cause your so smart, right..Writing them off as lack of brain function when you only know a bit about the incident seems little ironic , don't you think? And the ten foot plan you sure put down, i didnt hear anything construtive out of your post , which is rare cause your usually not such a condesending amatuer in that department..I'm sure you must have some great answer for me, can't wait to hear back..
 
Treetopflyer said:
Man your a master baiter.. how obvious do you need to make your self ..How would you feel if someone did that to your lifeline? Would you hope the severed it completly so you would fall instead of be thankful you get to go home? Is the aim of your post to make others feel stupid who aren't on here to defend thier actions , mistskes? Or make yourself feel cool ,Tell me how that works for you..See how that shit rolls down hill.. really raising the bar of professionalism, not your lowly little base tie aren't ya..? Why do you put someone down for possible lack of training, having a bad moment, or possibly slipped or tripped on a some thing with a revved up chainsaw and ..i know i know you dont make mistakes like that or ever have a rough day with other shit on your brain cause your so smart, right..Writing them off as lack of brain function when you only know a bit about the incident seems little ironic , don't you think? And the ten foot plan you sure put down, i didnt hear anything construtive out of your post , which is rare cause your usually not such a condesending amatuer in that department..I'm sure you must have some great answer for me, can't wait to hear back..
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58598
 
Funny picture , sure it's over my head. I guess I'm just tempted by prideful affiliation ,sad really .. I suck at social media , this is the only platform I utilize, treebuzz ... I'm thinking I'll do all a favor and hang my hat up and retire from here too. Certainly have something more to offer in my reality.. back to your regular scheduled programming.
Much love and stay safe out there folks
 
I misread the solution...when one climber can't keep his heavy work from landing near the other climbers life support system,

And the other guy can't control his chainsaw near someone's life-support system...

... The solution is nobody cuts within 10' of the climber's rope.


Two near misses, back to back...

Sounds like personnel, training and/ or procedural issues that "nobody cuts within 10' of a base-tie" will fix, like landing things work near someone's life support line.
 
Treetopflyer said:
Man your a master baiter.. how obvious do you need to make your self ..How would you feel if someone did that to your lifeline? Would you hope the severed it completly so you would fall instead of be thankful you get to go home? Is the aim of your post to make others feel stupid who aren't on here to defend thier actions , mistskes? Or make yourself feel cool ,Tell me how that works for you..See how that shit rolls down hill.. really raising the bar of professionalism, not your lowly little base tie aren't ya..? Why do you put someone down for possible lack of training, having a bad moment, or possibly slipped or tripped on a some thing with a revved up chainsaw and ..i know i know you dont make mistakes like that or ever have a rough day with other shit on your brain cause your so smart, right..Writing them off as lack of brain function when you only know a bit about the incident seems little ironic , don't you think? And the ten foot plan you sure put down, i didnt hear anything construtive out of your post , which is rare cause your usually not such a condesending amatuer in that department..I'm sure you must have some great answer for me, can't wait to hear back..
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I didn’t get anything too snarky from SS’s post. Maybe just tired and pounding the keyboard to get his thoughts out?
 
Treetopflyer said:
Funny picture , sure it's over my head. I guess I'm just tempted by prideful affiliation ,sad really .. I suck at social media , this is the only platform I utilize, treebuzz ... I'm thinking I'll do all a favor and hang my hat up and retire from here too. Certainly have something more to offer in my reality.. back to your regular scheduled programming.
Much love and stay safe out there folks
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Well that sucks. For what it's worth, in my short time being here, I've enjoyed reading you and you've given me some valuable food for thought, particularly around safety. Hope you stick around man.
 
Yea it makes me wonder about a lot of things. Sure fire him if he's paid well and your not rushing him or beating him down with crazy hours. or maybe he was on drugs or missed his medication? If there's no good reasons for what happend then there's also other ways to discipline a good worker that you don't want to fire.
Sounds like your a big outfit I will assume you know what your doing and installing new rules to reduce or prevent the problems from happening is good.
 
The dangers of forums are to offer general statements or solutions to specific issues, and vice versa. Yes can easily get out of control, sometimes overstep, sometimes low brow. The real gains are to make some positive discussions that all can learn from.

Forums have advanced learning in the job more than any other training tool I can think of...

I would hope that TreeBuzz not follow the demise of other forums in the past, but decide to man up and offer some real gains in understanding to all those both registered to this forum, and outside viewers.

We can all offer some divisive posts (myself included) particularly when tired etc. but the overall gains if we all persist in the attainment of the higher standard the better the Arb generation will be. We can forgive posts as quickly as judge them.

Let’s not forget also that humour is also sometimes lost on these posts when the right emoji is not added...

But preachy yes, but hopefully a welcome reminder of what these forums actually offer the Arb community and the need for all to contribute.
 
Back to the OP

Cutting close to a rope is flirting with disaster. My policy was to not allow cutting within 10' a rope. Also, bright colored ropes.

All fine and dandy until someone ignores the rules. It happened to me. I was climbing Ddrt and had small brush coming down to the base of the tree. As I moved up the slack loops in my rope zig zagged through layers of brush. I'd stop and have my groundies clear the brush and tend the rope. At one point I was moving up the tree and I heard a groundie come under and make a couple of cuts. Then the crew pealed away the brush. When I got up into position I stopped to wait for them. When they cleared my rope out of the brush I saw a fluff of rope..it was cut part way through!!! I was furious. I had my crew cut the rope and TDS a double fishermans stopper. The rope was orange Blaze...very visible.

When I got down from the pruning I took the guy aside. He was an experienced climber, not a new hire. I asked him why he was cutting near my rope...he gave a non-answer, 'it was only a couple of cuts'. Dodging responsibility. Then I asked if he saw my rope...yes. Did he know he knicked it? He wasn't sure..but didn't look me in the eye. I asked if he saw the nick when he cleared my rope...yes...Why didn't he say something? Dunno...I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt to see how this played out. I asked him if he thought that there should be a consequence. No. Not even paying for my cut rope? No

So having a procedure in place doesn't make a difference if SOPs aren't followed. This wasn't an accident, it was deliberate in a stoopid way rather than malicious. Might have been a good dose of Minnesota Grown Passive Aggression too.

After the job was cleaned up I held a meeting. By then the whole crew knew what was going on. I gave a briefing of what happened. Asked the crew what policy was in regards to cutting and ropes...ten feet. Was there another solution in this case. The other two groundies both offered a couple solutions. They were as stunned as me when the cutting happened, before they could react

My solution...rope cutter guy wasn't allowed to use a chainsaw for five days. A bit of Dunce Cap time. Damages like this would be paid for my the causer. I knew I couldn't enforce that so it was a bit of a bluff on my part. Before any cutting happens closer than 10' the rest of the crew will be verbally notified. The rest of the crew would have to support the decision...or solve the problem another way.

Within the five days rope cutter guy quit and started working for a buddy of mine. When I found that out I called my buddy to give him a heads up. What bothered me, second to cutting, was that he wasn't apologetic or chagrined. No more of a reaction than dulling a saw from a dirt cut. Heartless!

No matter how many rules and SOPs there are it only takes a moment to cause an accident. Is there a solution? That is a human behavior question with complicated solutions. We learn bit by bit. And buy brighter colored ropes. Tachyon lime green is my current fav.
 
Tom my own reaction to seeing your story was that I hope you wrote all the stuff down, including the workers lack of response and frankly I'da fired the rope cutter guy with cause. Behaviour like this is a safety problem. Bad stuff happens yep, but the idea is to fess up to it, apologize, learn and make restitution. Individuals like this can poison a worksite/ crew really quickly. The "oh well" or "so what" behaviour can't be condoned. The reaction reminds me of the guy who left the cab of the locomotive in the movie Unstoppable - was he contrite? No - ended up flippin burgers. He should't be in any safety sensitive jobs, like treework.
A suggestion is to work out a short list of what the crew would consider immediate dismissal behaviours, write these down and hand out at a safety meeting and then everyone knows where they stand. My 2 cents.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
Back to the OP

Cutting close to a rope is flirting with disaster. My policy was to not allow cutting within 10' a rope. Also, bright colored ropes.

All fine and dandy until someone ignores the rules. It happened to me. I was climbing Ddrt and had small brush coming down to the base of the tree. As I moved up the slack loops in my rope zig zagged through layers of brush. I'd stop and have my groundies clear the brush and tend the rope. At one point I was moving up the tree and I heard a groundie come under and make a couple of cuts. Then the crew pealed away the brush. When I got up into position I stopped to wait for them. When they cleared my rope out of the brush I saw a fluff of rope..it was cut part way through!!! I was furious. I had my crew cut the rope and TDS a double fishermans stopper. The rope was orange Blaze...very visible.

When I got down from the pruning I took the guy aside. He was an experienced climber, not a new hire. I asked him why he was cutting near my rope...he gave a non-answer, 'it was only a couple of cuts'. Dodging responsibility. Then I asked if he saw my rope...yes. Did he know he knicked it? He wasn't sure..but didn't look me in the eye. I asked if he saw the nick when he cleared my rope...yes...Why didn't he say something? Dunno...I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt to see how this played out. I asked him if he thought that there should be a consequence. No. Not even paying for my cut rope? No

So having a procedure in place doesn't make a difference if SOPs aren't followed. This wasn't an accident, it was deliberate in a stoopid way rather than malicious. Might have been a good dose of Minnesota Grown Passive Aggression too.

After the job was cleaned up I held a meeting. By then the whole crew knew what was going on. I gave a briefing of what happened. Asked the crew what policy was in regards to cutting and ropes...ten feet. Was there another solution in this case. The other two groundies both offered a couple solutions. They were as stunned as me when the cutting happened, before they could react

My solution...rope cutter guy wasn't allowed to use a chainsaw for five days. A bit of Dunce Cap time. Damages like this would be paid for my the causer. I knew I couldn't enforce that so it was a bit of a bluff on my part. Before any cutting happens closer than 10' the rest of the crew will be verbally notified. The rest of the crew would have to support the decision...or solve the problem another way.

Within the five days rope cutter guy quit and started working for a buddy of mine. When I found that out I called my buddy to give him a heads up. What bothered me, second to cutting, was that he wasn't apologetic or chagrined. No more of a reaction than dulling a saw from a dirt cut. Heartless!

No matter how many rules and SOPs there are it only takes a moment to cause an accident. Is there a solution? That is a human behavior question with complicated solutions. We learn bit by bit. And buy brighter colored ropes. Tachyon lime green is my current fav.
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It is hard to affirm or constructively criticise posts such as this as they are incident specific relationship issues within a working team, and between a boss and worker. It is good to hear of it to mull over the issues involved and try to put some perpective on it so can better prepare ourselves and our working teams to prevent reoccurrence, rationally handle workplace incidents and conflict, and mitigate risk.

This next part of the post is not a criticism but is noting possible extraneous factors that may or may not be involved.

When involved in a low level counselor course some years ago we were grilled not to slip into roles that would indicate judgement against the story or the person seeking workplace counselling. It was basically a listening course and how not to interrupt, manage, or control what was discussed.

The roles in a workplace can include peer-peer, teacher-student, etc but other roles can slip in such as parent-child whereby the authority in the encounter slips into the parent role and the person is unrealisingly pushed into the child role. This can have little consequence if positive history of experienceing these roles in persons involved in the encounter, although can still modify the reaction and freedom to divulge. But can also have negative consequence if history of bad experiences in those roles has been had by those in the encounter. The person could also resent and feel violated being pushed into that role.

So a question to be asked in encounters like this - are we sure of what drove that outcome to that situation? Was it Work ethic of the parties? Or was it emotional push back on way it was handled (the under the radar inclusions into the process)....

I am careful in saying this stuff as I am not a counselor, nor psychologist, but I have seen the fruits of these types of inputs into what should be a straight forward encounter.

We can also add emotion into the request. If we demand responses in front of peers, If we heighten rather than mitigate emotion in the management if the debriefing process (it is already high in that someone nearly got hurt, or someone is in risk of being discliplined it fired, someone is shocked at themselves making a rooky mistake etc we can actually and very easily mismanage the process with the best of intentions.

Sometimes in some situations workplace arguments and debriefs are best carried out later on over beers, when the anxiety of the moment has had a chance to dissipate. When emotions are high, they can bring a type of tunnel vision in the way topics are discussed rather than allowing some latitude.

Just some food for thought...
 
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Good commentary Chaplain. You hit on a few parts of the dynamic that was going on that day.

At the time, this was a long time ago, I was formalizing procedures and documenting rather than loosey goosey. Until that day I would never had thought I would have to go as far. Lots to learn
 
Tree crews could be compared to sailing crews, you need trust for success and survival. If someone endangers the the crew they get tossed overboard. In the old world one might even be so embarrassed and ashamed they'd throw themselves over. When it's life and death there's no time for patty cake. Counseling and all that is fine but in some situations there's no room for hand holding, if you want to stay alive. Maybe it's harsh, but not as harsh as falling to your death or serious injury.
 
Not to endorse risky behaviour or dangers of the team, but you could be missing a whole lot of team development, not to mention employee turnover by treating the offender as a Jonah.

Could be a whole lot of factors that contributed ending up in the incident at hand. And if shedding people is easier than in depth review you could be at risk of the underlying issues surfacing again in future...
 
Better be a damned good excuse for something that ridiculous, what good is team development if one teammate is dead? Something that all of the standards and regs fail to address, some people are simply not cut out to work in dangerous trades. It does not mean they are less of a person by any means, just some people ought not be allowed to have sharp things, as old oak man says.
 
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