ITCC Rope Wrench Submission

this is the letter from the TAC which I was looking at sort of as my homework assignment.

This is the dilemma I have to resolve: What do I tell technicians doing gear inspection in regards to how to recognise a functioning set-up of a Rope Wrench? What's a correct configuration as defined by the manufacturer? What friction hitch cordage shall be used? What knot? What knot configuration? What cordage diameter? Heat resistant or not? How long shall the tether be? Shall it be load bearing? Shall it be rigid? How do you identify a misconfiguration? What are fail criteria? How do we perform a grab test? etc.etc. This information is not supplied in the UIs. So how are we going to make a call on all of this? Gut feeling? Should there be an incident during the comp on this device, gut feeling is a weak basis to justify a call on in court, if the worst comes to the worst. The same goes for anecdotal testing videos on Youtube. Posting stuff on social media may be fun, but cannot replace some form of documentation and testing when it comes to PPE for work at height.
My default position is, if in doubt to fail equipment, i.e. if I I'm not supplied with sufficient and suitable info info to make a well founded decision with... it's a fail. This is by no means specific to your device, it's applied across the board. I remember discussing this during the climbers' meeting after Parramatta, so this should not be news to you.
 
I still have trouble understanding why the decision was reversed on the fate revolver, kong robot, conterra scarab or other hitch based SRT systems. I think that I must be just incredibly dense.
 
Politics sure are fun.
rolleyes.gif


Wish you luck Kevin. <3 my wrench.
 
I actually have been climbing a lot of ddrt recently. Its not all that bad really. I can still climb a tree on one rope two ropes or three. Pros and cons of all of them.
 
In a sense I think it would be nice to get a positive statement as to the reasons, beyond procedural hangups, why I shouldn't be using my wrench. I think the users have come up with a good bit of information on how the tool can be used wrong, what to avoid, etc, like any other device.
I'm only concerned with figuring out how to use it better, my experience to this point is that it is just as reliable and just as non-foolproof as any other technique. If there is something fundamentally wrong with the tool, and none of us has seen it, it would be nice having someone tell us why. The "Denied" stamp doesn't help us out very much.
I read the ITCC statement in Arborist News a few months back saying that the committee was not going to crack before pressure from pro-wrench hecklers. I wonder what has been done on their end to facilitate the process so that we can make better judgements during the workday for our own safety.
I can think of a lot of ergonomic and energy conservation reasons to stop body thrusting around a tree. If I'm going to fall out of a tree for reasons I haven't seen, man I'd sure like to know...
 
So sorry Kevin!! We were really hoping to hear good news! Good Luck in Portland - we will be thinking of you here in Michigan! Go Kevin, Go Kevin, Go Kevin!!!
 
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In a sense I think it would be nice to get a positive statement as to the reasons, beyond procedural hangups, why I shouldn't be using my wrench. I think the users have come up with a good bit of information on how the tool can be used wrong, what to avoid, etc, like any other device.
I'm only concerned with figuring out how to use it better, my experience to this point is that it is just as reliable and just as non-foolproof as any other technique. If there is something fundamentally wrong with the tool, and none of us has seen it, it would be nice having someone tell us why. The "Denied" stamp doesn't help us out very much.
I read the ITCC statement in Arborist News a few months back saying that the committee was not going to crack before pressure from pro-wrench hecklers. I wonder what has been done on their end to facilitate the process so that we can make better judgements during the workday for our own safety.
I can think of a lot of ergonomic and energy conservation reasons to stop body thrusting around a tree. If I'm going to fall out of a tree for reasons I haven't seen, man I'd sure like to know...

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Very well put Ryan.
 
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I still have trouble understanding why the decision was reversed on the fate revolver, kong robot, conterra scarab or other hitch based SRT systems. I think that I must be just incredibly dense.

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It's not about being dense, it's about politics in a not for profit organization. It's not understandable because hidden agendas are being pushed. There is no benefit to the ISA for banning the Rope Wrench, some individuals are exerting power for reasons which they are keeping to themselves.
 
Why couldn't a climber at inspection or during the srt approval process lay out there intended usE for approval. They can show their knots, ropes and attachments and why it is safe. THis has been done with other srt configurations in the past that we're put together from individual pieces of gear in new configurations.
 
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Why couldn't a climber at inspection or during the srt approval process lay out there intended usE for approval. They can show their knots, ropes and attachments and why it is safe. THis has been done with other srt configurations in the past that we're put together from individual pieces of gear in new configurations.

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This is how almost all inspections have been done in the past. Lately there has been a requirement of climbers to submit any innovations ahead of time. Since I haven't been involved in ITCC tech inspections I have no clue if this has been enforced.

I have to wonder why someone would be able to show up with a DdRT innovation at ITCC and be able to climb with it even if it weren't submitted.

There HAS to be someone here who has done gear checks at ITCC. If so, its time to unlurk...or email/PM me. I'm not interested in unmasking anyone...just trying to understand how this process has worked in the past.
 
What I don't get is, there asking you for specific cordage and what hitch configuration. In a Ddrt set up all you have to show that your hitch holds. Everyone uses a different configuration, why don't they make every one that climbs on a hitch climber be required to use the same hitch cord
tied the same way.
 
it is going to happen regardless of wether they want it to or not. not for every thing but i can't think of one system that gets it right all the time.
 
[ QUOTE ]

This is the dilemma I have to resolve: What do I tell technicians doing gear inspection in regards to how to recognise a functioning set-up of a Rope Wrench? What's a correct configuration as defined by the manufacturer? What friction hitch cordage shall be used? What knot? What knot configuration? What cordage diameter? Heat resistant or not? How long shall the tether be? Shall it be load bearing? Shall it be rigid? How do you identify a misconfiguration? What are fail criteria? How do we perform a grab test? etc.etc. This information is not supplied in the UIs. So how are we going to make a call on all of this? Gut feeling? Should there be an incident during the comp on this device, gut feeling is a weak basis to justify a call on in court, if the worst comes to the worst. The same goes for anecdotal testing videos on Youtube. Posting stuff on social media may be fun, but cannot replace some form of documentation and testing when it comes to PPE for work at height.
My default position is, if in doubt to fail equipment, i.e. if I I'm not supplied with sufficient and suitable info info to make a well founded decision with... it's a fail. This is by no means specific to your device, it's applied across the board. I remember discussing this during the climbers' meeting after Parramatta, so this should not be news to you.

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All of those questions (except re the tether) sound like they could and should be asked (and maybe are) the same for any climbing system that combines a hitch and hardware.

So how are they currently answered?

There are almost infinite combinations of cordage and configurations in use with hardware not designed for the purpose they are being used (e.g. pulleys used in a system) How was that decided to be ok i wonder... There is no documentation that comes with any pulley i know of that suggests how to cover all the above questions, not even a hitchclimber. It does not come with any info on how to configure a hitch, let alone what type of cord or anything else.

So has someone supplied this info for a hitchclimber system?
If not, how was the call made??? It was probably based on Experience.

The Rope Wrench has been in use for some time now. Maybe a solution would be if the techs making the call whether or not a system is ok to use are not familiar with what makes a good or bad rope wrench set up they could enlist the help of an advisor who does have Experience with it and can make the judgement on the individuals configuration.

I am aware of the hitchclimbers guide to the canopy, but it is distinctly a guide and not a UI and refers to the pulley UI which is pretty generic and doesn't say much in relation to the way we use it.

Here is an interesting random fact, it is not rated to speed greater than 1.99m per second...so if a climber descends faster than that in the tree on this system are they are using it outside its rated use?
 
wow, lots of emotion in this conversation. i haven't had time lately to contribute much to TB, so this thread is new to me. i completely understand the frustration of those of you innovators and groundbreakers out there who love this tool and want to be able to use it. and you can, just not in most competitions - not this year. it will come. i've done gear inspection at ITCC before, and will be doing it this year and trust me - it is a bunch of committed volunteers (yes, please don't forget this entire show runs because of volunteer time and energy) doing their best to make sure the competitors have a safe and fun experience. in that order.

those of you who are suggesting ulterior motives and political reasons behind this decision are, in my opinion, way off base. again - i get the reason for the heat, but i know many of the people involved in this decision making process (again, almost entirely VOLUNTEER) and there is definitely an above average amount of integrity in this crowd. the reason, i believe, for increased caution in the gear approval process - and the reason for the creation of the technical advisory committee not very many years ago - is that equipment is evolving much more quickly than it was previously.

the international competition and climbers who are involved in it are at the forefront of the evolution of production climbing tools and techniques. there is a very real risk, perhaps especially among isolated climbers, that people will look at tools/techniques being used at ITCC and take their use there as a stamp of approval without any close examination or training. the purpose of the competition is to foster safer and more efficient work practices in the industry. this is the reason for the delay.

when i was a kid, mom always said to "set a good example" for my little sister. think of it as ITCC trying to set a good example of work practices for thousands of climbers, many quite isolated, all over the world. caution is the better part of valor.

my two cents, not any official kind of response in any sense of the word. not looking for argument, just voicing an alternate opinion.
kevin, it's great to see that you are being proactive and rational about this whole thing. nicely done.

thx for reading.
k.
 
hehe it's nice that they gave you the whole weekend Kevin, tight window eh?

Kathy I understand where your coming from and I do thank you and your people for ya'lls service... I just can't help feel that we are all human, can't you talk to the 'higher ups' and get this validation thing going. Obviously it works, it's safe, and we can figure out a way to give it the okay. These innovators and groundbreakers move quickly and are tough to keep up with, this I know, but ITCC committee should adjust just as quick.

K, you say... "there is a very real risk, perhaps especially among isolated climbers, that people will look at tools/techniques being used at ITCC and take their use there as a stamp of approval without any close examination or training. the purpose of the competition is to foster safer and more efficient work practices in the industry. this is the reason for the delay.

K, those isolated climbers understand the risk with all climbing tools, away from the competition. They hold themselves solely responsible, and wouldn't ever consider blaming anyone, especially the staff of the ITCC for stamping something that shouldn't be stamped. Please do not loose sight... the purpose of the competition is to crown the best Tree Climber in the world... fostering safe and efficient work practices of ze industry will naturally be instilled into those who care. The committee needs to commit to evolving at the pace of the tree climbing world, there really is no excuses.

K, more than anything though, I appreciate your thoughts and effort overall. It's people like you who continue to bring the TC world together. Safely of course :) Thanks!
 
Kathy,
I was glad to hear your input on this. I thought it might have assuaged the conspiracy theorists and grumblers but...I can't wait to hear what comes next. Hopefully zombies are involved somehow. I like zombies.

Kevin,
I like the way you are going about this: Seeing their response as a homework assignment rather than noose. I wish you luck with your efforts to get the wrench approved. Some of the information they asked for does seem a bit excessive but hopefully it's in the interest of safety. Good luck!
 
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It's not about being dense, it's about politics in a not for profit organization. It's not understandable because hidden agendas are being pushed. There is no benefit to the ISA for banning the Rope Wrench, some individuals are exerting power for reasons which they are keeping to themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hammer. Nail. Bang.
 
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