How much force to pull a BigShot? pics!

I’ve often wonder that myself, so I hooked up my scale to my Big Shot and measured it.

I have a 3:1 MA with a Blake’s hitch catch and a quick release so it’s easy to pull the pouch to a position and hold it, well, and for that matter to release it slowly if I decide not to fire it.

Anyway, here are some pics of the test. I measured the force three different times for confirmation. The first two times I got just under 80 lbs; the third time, as shown in the pics, I got 75 lbs. The first two times I had the scale inverted and the last time I had it up right. I think the 5 lb difference may be that in the inverted mode, the weight of the scale body is measured, which would contribute to pull force.

Here’s the starting position:
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Here’s the stretched position. I pulled the pouch pull strap to the top of the aluminum collar on the bottom section – that’s right at 30.5 inches of stretch.
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Here’s what the scale read. Although the sunlight just about washed out the reading, the 75 lb mark is visible to the left of the red line indicator.
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An interesting thing about this is that if we calculated the implied energy, assuming a linear triangular profile of the force vs displacement of the power bands, i.e.

E = .5 x force x displacement = .5 x 75 lbs x 30.5”/12”) = 95.3 ft-lbs.

That suggests that a Big Shot should be able to propel a 16 oz throw bag just over 95 feet, from the position shown in the pics. However, measurements I’ve done on latex tubing reveal that the force-displacement profile is far from triangular or linear. Hence, based on my measurements (other than the Big Shot) the Big Shot would not have anywhere near 95.3 ft-lbs of energy, nor could it propel a 16 oz bag 95 feet from the position I measured. My guess would be more like 60 – 70 feet.

I know, you’ve seen it shoot a 16 oz bag a hundred feet – me too, but not from the position in the pic – it had to be stretched further.

Another interesting thing is that whatever distance it would shoot a 16 oz bag, shouldn't it shoot an 8 oz bag nearly twice as far?

Nothing particularly revolutionizing about this, just thought it was interesting enough to post. It does help explain, perhaps, why it is so difficult to be accurate shooting high if you have to manually pull, hold, and release the Big Shot.

I recently shot an 82 foot 'window' shot with an 8 oz bag using the quick release. It took two tries. The first time I inadvertently pulled the bag back through the crotch and had to re-shoot it. To me, the release makes tons of difference in accuracy.
 
Interesting info, but I don't understand why this:


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It does help explain, perhaps, why it is so difficult to be accurate shooting high if you have to manually pull, hold, and release the Big Shot.

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would follow from the exercise that you did. But what do you mean by "accurate" (a 12 inch square target, 24 inch square target?)and what do you mean by "high" (80 feet, 100 feet, more?)?
 
Ron,

Very nice to see how the math confirms and predicts field results.

Are you going to do a test of a full pull?

I've seen some shooters who don't use a a trigger be very accurate. how they do that is beyond me. Before making my trigger I would be all over the tree trying to hit a TIP. Now I can be pretty accurate and repeatable.
 
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Can we get a pic of your 3:1 system? Or does anyone else know any threads with any?

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I'll take some pics and post them. School cranks back up tomorrow so it may be the weekend, but I'll get some made and posted.
 
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Interesting info, but I don't understand why this:


[ QUOTE ]
It does help explain, perhaps, why it is so difficult to be accurate shooting high if you have to manually pull, hold, and release the Big Shot.

[/ QUOTE ]


would follow from the exercise that you did. But what do you mean by "accurate" (a 12 inch square target, 24 inch square target?)and what do you mean by "high" (80 feet, 100 feet, more?)?

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Maybe this will help. Using the setup I described, I showed a young friend of my wife (18 year old female) how to fire the Big Shot (BS). I needed to get a line over a limb 55 feet high. She had never fired a BS or even seen one before and I let her line it up and fire it. She made the shot on the second try and the line was within a foot of the crotch.

Then my pull rope on another limb at 55' broke and for time's sake I shot it. It took one shot.

Then, as I said in my OP, I recently shot an 82 foot 'window' shot with an 8 oz bag using the 3:1 set up, the fixed anchor, and quick release. It took two tries. The first time I inadvertently pulled the bag back through the crotch and had to re-shoot it.

These are workable shots rather than perfect. By that I mean that I still often have to do some manipulation tricks to get what I want. My favorite trick is, after a shot that goes over the target limb, even if it goes over higher limbs and into other trees, I tie a 16 oz throw bag to the other end of the throw line and tie a second throw line to this same bag. I pull up the bag from the opposite end of the line I shot over the tree and as soon as the16 oz bag clears the crotch on the other side, I release the line and let the weight pull both ends to the ground. That puts one line right over the target limb without having to pull the bag back through and risk a hang. Then I untie the orginal line and pull it down from the throw bag end. The loose end trails easily through the twigs and limbs. Some times I have to do that again with the second throw line to isolate on the other side of the limb.

Hmmm, that sounds a whole lot more complicated than it really is.

In addition to first and second successes, I've had my share of shots I thought I never would make. Hard shots, but they took an inordinate amount of time just because of inaccurate shots on my part or something.

I think it is more difficult to shoot accurately manually, i.e. it is hard to control everything while trying to aim and hold 75 - 100 lbs of force with one hand. That's probably more significant for us older guys.

But, I also believe the quick release gives us better sighting options. You can 'set' the BS, and move it to the most advantageous position for the shot and alignment. I notice Tom likes to shoot with the base of the pole against his shoulder.

I like to put the base of the pole in the front of my hip joint. I seem to get better alignment and hence accuracy from that position.

Based on shooting 10 to 12 thousand rounds though my handguns a year for years, I've learned that accuracy is maximized by consistency of technique. I apply that to shooting with the BS. I try to use the same technique, including the same hand position, the same attachment point on the pull strap of the pouch, and I use very smooth, continuous pressure on the release pull string until the release releases.

One thing that is counterproductive to accuracy for me is the manual hold. It's just difficult to get every thing stable while holding upwards to 100 lbs with one hand. It's also difficult to ensure that you don't pull the pouch 'off center' just a bit as you pull/hold/release it. If that happens, the shot is gonna go right or left.

I also try to very carefully note how far down I pull the pouch so if the bag goes too high or too low, I know how to adjust the power. Alignment is as much an art as a method as there is really not much to align with.

Also, I believe having a fixed anchor point at the base of the the pole (rather than a wrapped anchor as depicted in the BS instruction sheet) holds alignment truer and more consistently than the wrapped method.

Just my thoughts from a number of afternoons spent 'playing' with various shots and methods.

Mahk,

You raise an excellent question about accuracy. I really can't give a quantitative answer, i.e. 12", 24", etc. All I can say is that I regularly hit high, 60 - 82' shots, through windows within a foot of the crotch of the target limb. Many times it only takes one or two shots; other times it's frustrating. But lately, when I do everything consistently, I do pretty good.

Well that's my simple story, and I'm stickin' to it! LOL.

Sorry for such a long post!
 
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Ron,

Very nice to see how the math confirms and predicts field results.

Are you going to do a test of a full pull?

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Maybe. I guess I really need to know what we want to call a full pull?

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I've seen some shooters who don't use a a trigger be very accurate. how they do that is beyond me. Before making my trigger I would be all over the tree trying to hit a TIP. Now I can be pretty accurate and repeatable.

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I don't know how they do it either; I apparently don't have the strength to control everything and hold upwards to 100 lbs with one hand. But, I have no doubt that many can shoot well manually.

Oh, another accuracy consideration is balance in the rubber tubing. If one side pulls stronger than the other, the shot is gonna 'drift' to the strong side.
 
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Full pull would be down to the bottom of the second four foot section.

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Hmmmm, I'll have to get a 3' section to make that long of a pull with the scale in the 'loop', but that may not be a problem. I'll have to think about that.

!! The fiberglass pole won't break if I pull it that hard will it !!

Seems like we had a thread somewhere that Tobe said the BS wasn't designed for a full 8 foot pull???? Anybody remember?
 
OK, that's the way mine came, so looks like we're on - well, as soon as I can get an extension to accommodate the foot long force scale.

A load cell would be nice, but I don't have one.
 
i launched a 14 oz bag well over 100 ft in air at about 80 degrees. so high tha t i could no longer see it. had to find it with metal detector as it slammed into the ground 8 inches. when i attached the line the results were not even close. so i put the poles up on cement blocks and really pulled. close but still not nearly as far. placement of the bag in pouch is critial for a productive shot. Practice..practice....practice
 
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All I can say is that I regularly hit high, 60 - 82' shots, through windows within a foot of the crotch of the target limb. Many times it only takes one or two shots; other times it's frustrating.

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How did you come up with 82'? Just curious that you used a precise number like that.

My accuracy is about the same as yours--sometimes one or two shots, sometimes frustrating. Although the height we shoot to is commonly 100+'. Several of the guys I work with can consistently throw that high with reasonable accuracy.

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It's just difficult to get every thing stable while holding upwards to 100 lbs with one hand.

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I often see people shooting by holding one hand on the pole and one hand on the pouch. I don't know why, but ever since I've used the BS (I bought one when it was first offered at TCI Expo) I have pulled the pouch with two hands--no hand on the pole. When I adjust my aim, I move my hands and the entire BS--pole, rubbers, and frame--all move together. This may be one thing that helps with accuracy.


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...some manipulation tricks ...

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I called 'em Slick Tricks:

http://www.treebuzz.com/pdf/0505_slicktricks.pdf


and More Slick Tricks:

http://www.treebuzz.com/pdf/0505_moreslicktricks.pdf

When those articles were written the most common throwline was a polypropylene, 3mm line called Slick Line.
 
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When I adjust my aim, I move my hands and the entire BS--pole, rubbers, and frame--all move together. This may be one thing that helps with accuracy.

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I'm having a hard time imagining this technique. Do you let the BS fall to the ground after releasing the pouch and throwbag/line?

jp
grin.gif
 
My accuracy is about the same as yours--sometimes one or two shots, sometimes frustrating. Although the height we shoot to is commonly 100+'. Several of the guys I work with can consistently throw that high with reasonable accuracy.

you know guys that can pitch a bag and line 100+ FEET INTO AIR .....AND DO IT ACCURATLY
 
Ron: [ QUOTE ]
All I can say is that I regularly hit high, 60 - 82' shots, through windows within a foot of the crotch of the target limb. Many times it only takes one or two shots; other times it's frustrating.

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Mahk: [ QUOTE ]
How did you come up with 82'? Just curious that you used a precise number like that.

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I pulled my climbing rope up, climbed to the TIP. When I came down I pulled the rope so one end just touched the ground and tied a knot that would just touch the ground on the long side of the rope. I pulled the rope down, got the knot and end evened up, pulled the rope until it was straight, and measured the 'folded' length.

82' isn't all that precise, it's just what I measured. I wear a size 10 boot and I've found a size 10 boot measures almost exactly 12" or 1 foot - very close. So I heel-to-toe for the length of the rope to get a close approximation of the length. That way I don't have to mess with my 100' tape measure and it's close enough for me, because I measure everything that way, with the same boots, so it may not be precise, but it will be fairly accurate and consistent, and that's good enough for most of my purposes.

If I need more accuracy, I use my 100' tape.

I wasn't doubting many can shoot accurately manually. As much as it pains me to have to admit, I'm simply not as strong or durable as I used to be. It is pretty difficult for me to manage upwards of 100 lbs with one hand and especially be accurate.

But I think the fact that a 115 lb female that had never used a BS before made a 55' shot in two tries using a release does testify to how easy it makes the effort.
 
This is more or less the posture I use when shooting the BS. In this case I was throwing tennis(dog) balls into the bay, but the idea is the same. One hand on the pole, one hand on the pouch. I also tuck my foot behind the pole where it rests on the ground so the pole doesn't want to jump up into my rigging....

Aim down the pole like traditional archery sights, adjust for windage and let it fly!
 

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