High standards vs lower standards for preventing damage and incidents | Business owner vs employees and subcontractors

[climbingmonkey24]

For most of my career I’ve done all the climbing, with any employees being ground workers.

Then I once and a while used a contract climber last year. Worked out well.

This year I’m expanding even more trying to push growth and taking on more projects that involve more equipment, crane work, etc. which means putting my trust in others if I have a crane operator on site, or another climber.

Certainly not trying to make myself sound better than anyone else here, but I have very high standards when it comes to damage or incidents. I don’t believe having a relaxed attitude that “it’s tree work, sometimes things happen” is necessarily the right attitude. If you can do things safer even if it may take longer, then there’s no need to risk causing significant damage just to get the job done faster. Not to mention the fact it’s not the best look for your business.

And obviously I understand sometimes stuff that is unpredictable happens.

The people who I am sometimes having assist me are good people who work in the industry, and my friends, but I do feel like their standards are different. For instance, they may use spikes on a prune, but if we are on my jobs, I ask that spikes not be worn unless they are only being used on part of a tree that is being removed. Where I may rig or may take a smaller piece, they sometimes will cut and chuck, or suggest taking a bigger crane pick. I try not to be overly controlling and be respectful of their experience and only intervene if there is something I’m very unsure about having done.

I realize that with expansion and growth and higher-risk projects comes, well, higher risk. As much as I can try to set the tone and standards for a job, it’s difficult to try and accept that not every employee or subcontractor will have the same standards. But unfortunately if I want to take my company in the direction I’m heading, it may mean having to give up some control and putting trust in someone else. But how do you do that when you know there may be a higher risk of something happening because their standards might not quite be the same?

 

[Dan Thornton]

More of my career has been in the board room than in the Buckingham saddle, but the board room gives a good perspective on your question. Boards have to control through policies. And it comes down to what the board is comfortable living with or not, that is, their values.
I think you as the owner need to be clear what kind of company you want. Your work, whether done by you or your employees, needs to be something you are proud of and that reflects your values. But it doesn't work for you to be always on site, bugging people (training them) to do it your way. Values need to be written and it's best to say what you don't want to happen, rather than what you do want to happen.
In other words, write down the things you never want to see happen, EVEN IF THEY WORK.
So if you never want to spike a tree being pruned except parts being removed, that's a good policy to write down, and violating that is enough reason to fire someone. If you never want a day's work to begin without a safety briefing, that's a good policy. If you never want the work pace to ever outrun thoughtful, good communication, have it in writing. Then at the end of every job, someone could have responsibility to fill a daily report checking the boxes that none of those things happened.
Stating policies in the negative makes clear what's off limits, but it leaves all the positive still open to the crew, so they can still be creative and invested in how they do the work.

 

[ghostice]

Craig talks about an accident they had and what they've put in place since, in his company. This makes some good points about running a company with workers/ contractors v.s. a lone wolf operator and preparing for boo-boo's.
I talked to an arborist just yesterday working in our hood - had a truck and chipper from a big big company but was working alone and planning to climb about 50 - 60 feet during at least one dead wooding operation. Kinda made me have pause a bit 'cuz nobody was around.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

These are great points, and for employees maybe highly beneficial.

But I also feel like there are limits when you’re dealing with a subcontractor (climber or crane op). Time is money right? So if these other contractors are used to just showing up, doing the job, and getting out of there, and now here I am holding safety briefings, asking to fill out reports, etc. I would be concerned about them getting overly annoyed with all the “extra” stuff that goes along with working for me.

Like yesterday we were doing a crane-assisted prune, removing large limbs and branches extending far out over wires, a driveway, and house.

And the climber mentioned over intercom it being difficult to do without spurs. The crane op said he has his spurs with him (he also is a climber) and the guy in the tree said “so do I”. I ended up offering for him to use his spikes as we were taking out larger sections than what was anticipated and would mainly be using them on those sections, but he finished without.

I had asked him prior to starting if he would be okay not climbing with spikes because it was oak and he would be positioned in areas that were not coming off.

Here’s what set off the whole chain of events that started me thinking about this though. First pick went nice and smooth. Then on one of the next picks, something must’ve happened with the rigging (I was chipping so didn’t see how it was setup) because a smaller branch broke off somehow and came down, coming in contact with the wires and shaking them in the process.

It was a tense moment but everyone regained their composure and went back to work. Both the crane op and climber re-evaluated their sling setup and decided to make changes for the upcoming picks. Those other slings did work out well for the most part, minus one pick that might’ve done a 180 degree turn once it was cut.

To me I don’t see this as acceptable. I mentioned that this could’ve been a catastrophe and the crane op said the power company would come hook it up, but that’s not the point. It’s not a good look for your business, not to mention someone could get hurt or killed when you’re dealing with a live wire, even though it was only a service drop, but still it has electricity going through it.

My point of view is that every pick should be smooth and balanced, that there should be minimal tipping or swinging, etc. And certainly not something breaking off. But, maybe my expectations are too high? We’re not factoring in different species of wood reacting different and responding differently. You may have one thing in mind and the tree has something else. So maybe it was just an honest accident?

My experience working with the climber in the past has been great, no issues. Safety-oriented, etc. So I was a little caught off guard that something like this happened.

And yeah, there’s always the answer of finding a new crane op or climber, but that presents challenges in itself with potential new risks and problems. I already have a relationship with these people, and the current subcontractors I use are an asset to my business helping me take on projects I might not go at if I was to just keep everything in-house. In fact, the climber recently got me extra work by referring me to one of his clients for a job that he didn’t want to take on, which I was very appreciative of.

 

[Reach]

If every piece we ever lifted came off perfectly smooth and balanced, I wouldn't know what to do. I would think I was dreaming.

Once in a while, dead branches do break or get shaken out of a piece that we are lifting, we try to keep that from happening but it is a hazard of lifting things with a crane.

Yesterday, we lifted 20 trees out from behind a horse tie in building at a 250 year-old church. None of the trees were specially large, no more than about 6000 pounds, so we lifted them all whole. In the process, we did shake out some small dead branches, and we rattled an old telephone company guy wire that ran between some of the trees. We also showered the roof with little dead stuff a few times, we knew it was likely going to happen, but we also knew that there would be no damage from it. I did not do any of the rigging myself yesterday, I was on the ground, but I did all of the cutting and directed the crane in lifting everything away from the building that was at times less than an inch from the trees. In the process, we certainly expected some things to move when they came off, and they did, to me that is just part of the world of production tree removal with cranes.

 

[southsoundtree]

1. No spurs on retained parts. Make foot loops for the final cut.

2. Pay them for the safety meeting (naturally).

3. Time for your climber to learn better skills. Don't things the harder, right way makes the right way easier the next time, and time after that.
Is this someone who is making a career out of this?

4. No suggestions about how long you think the job will take. Give as much time as needed. Pay for the full time.
My occasional CO sends to always be in a hurry. He gets the same hourly from everyone, or at least I'm getting no discount. Every job I say that I'm in a no-rush headspace and my checkbook is ready when finished.



I had a CC (new to the PNW) for a good- sized maple dismantle, no clean up in a green belt. He asked how long he had to get the tree down, all day?
I said IDK how long it would take, thinking 2 hours for me. With some coaching and training on Gord's Magic Cut for dropping logs, he had it down in 3-4 hours-ish. Very reasonable.

 

[Mick Dempsey!]

I’ve had one small insurance claim in the last 20 years, 2k for some glass in a porch.

Wooden fences, the odd telephone line, a bit of a gutter down pipe. These things I’ll replace myself or pay a pro to do it.

It’s treework, sometimes these things happen.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

1. No spurs on retained parts. Make foot loops for the final cut.

2. Pay them for the safety meeting (naturally).

3. Time for your climber to learn better skills. Don't things the harder, right way makes the right way easier the next time, and time after that.
Is this someone who is making a career out of this?

4. No suggestions about how long you think the job will take. Give as much time as needed. Pay for the full time.
My occasional CO sends to always be in a hurry. He gets the same hourly from everyone, or at least I'm getting no discount. Every job I say that I'm in a no-rush headspace and my checkbook is ready when finished.



I had a CC (new to the PNW) for a good- sized maple dismantle, no clean up in a green belt. He asked how long he had to get the tree down, all day?
I said IDK how long it would take, thinking 2 hours for me. With some coaching and training on Gord's Magic Cut for dropping logs, he had it down in 3-4 hours-ish. Very reasonable.

I have a similar point of view. If a job takes longer and I have to pay more for the contractor’s services, then that’s what has to happen. We do our best to estimate a time but sometimes things change, and I rather take that extra time than rush through.

My current contract climber owns his own tree service, so yes, I would think he is making a career out of it, or at least it’s what he is currently doing. He’s a great climber, moves around the tree with confidence, good at rigging, but as far as I know he’s just always used spurs. It’s not that he can’t climb without them, I just think for some people it’s preferred to be able to just spike up rather than having to set tie in points, etc. He asked me before whether I think it really makes a difference not using spurs because he’s seen trees that were spiked and continued to thrive, and my response was that the general consensus regarding proper pruning practices is it’s best to not use them on parts of the tree that are staying. It’s never been an issue with him being adamant about needing to use them, and he’s respected me asking that we don’t use them. It more so speaks to the different approaches to tree work that we may have.

I also try to be encouraging when I see something positive on a job, such as a good rig or good pick…tell my team members “nice work” or something like that.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Just as a point on wires, when I was first starting out I stress tested house drops a little too much, started a small attic fire. Fortunately got it out and sorted.

 

[southsoundtree]

Wow!!






How are the climber's thrower throw line skills.

Have to set a line

Get to set a line

Rope walker or footlocker?

 

[southsoundtree]

P.S. my contract specifies spurless except for removals as per ANSI...z-whatever.

If you want to set yourself apart from spur pruners, consider adding that along with other Terms and Conditions.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

And how many times after an incident is too much to be talked about? Certainly use it as a learning experience, but is there a point where it becomes a little overboard and time to move on?

Certainly wouldn’t want to give the impression that I’m assigning blame to anyone because the truth is, I didn’t see it as it occurred, only the branch as it landed. So I can’t say with certainty what happened to cause it.

 

[evo]

These are great points, and for employees maybe highly beneficial.

But I also feel like there are limits when you’re dealing with a subcontractor (climber or crane op). Time is money right? So if these other contractors are used to just showing up, doing the job, and getting out of there, and now here I am holding safety briefings, asking to fill out reports, etc. I would be concerned about them getting overly annoyed with all the “extra” stuff that goes along with working for me.

Like yesterday we were doing a crane-assisted prune, removing large limbs and branches extending far out over wires, a driveway, and house.

And the climber mentioned over intercom it being difficult to do without spurs. The crane op said he has his spurs with him (he also is a climber) and the guy in the tree said “so do I”. I ended up offering for him to use his spikes as we were taking out larger sections than what was anticipated and would mainly be using them on those sections, but he finished without.

I had asked him prior to starting if he would be okay not climbing with spikes because it was oak and he would be positioned in areas that were not coming off.

Here’s what set off the whole chain of events that started me thinking about this though. First pick went nice and smooth. Then on one of the next picks, something must’ve happened with the rigging (I was chipping so didn’t see how it was setup) because a smaller branch broke off somehow and came down, coming in contact with the wires and shaking them in the process.

It was a tense moment but everyone regained their composure and went back to work. Both the crane op and climber re-evaluated their sling setup and decided to make changes for the upcoming picks. Those other slings did work out well for the most part, minus one pick that might’ve done a 180 degree turn once it was cut.

To me I don’t see this as acceptable. I mentioned that this could’ve been a catastrophe and the crane op said the power company would come hook it up, but that’s not the point. It’s not a good look for your business, not to mention someone could get hurt or killed when you’re dealing with a live wire, even though it was only a service drop, but still it has electricity going through it.

My point of view is that every pick should be smooth and balanced, that there should be minimal tipping or swinging, etc. And certainly not something breaking off. But, maybe my expectations are too high? We’re not factoring in different species of wood reacting different and responding differently. You may have one thing in mind and the tree has something else. So maybe it was just an honest accident?

My experience working with the climber in the past has been great, no issues. Safety-oriented, etc. So I was a little caught off guard that something like this happened.

And yeah, there’s always the answer of finding a new crane op or climber, but that presents challenges in itself with potential new risks and problems. I already have a relationship with these people, and the current subcontractors I use are an asset to my business helping me take on projects I might not go at if I was to just keep everything in-house. In fact, the climber recently got me extra work by referring me to one of his clients for a job that he didn’t want to take on, which I was very appreciative of.

Reading this, my primary thought is at least around here the power company will do a free service drop disconnect. It’s another PITA with scheduling and even more of a pain if using a 3rd party crane.

There is nothing wrong with wearing spikes and using them on parts to be removed, but I also question why use a crane on a pruning job? Rarely I will use spikes and make the upmost effort to only poke the remaining part of the tree if I absolutely have to. When I do that it might be only one foot inwards from the finish cut, but really if spikes have to be worn I’d really look at the big picture to see what’s wrong with the puzzle.

 

[evo]

Just as a point on wires, when I was first starting out I stress tested house drops a little too much, started a small attic fire. Fortunately got it out and sorted.

I was the employee on a crew where the boss decided to fell a tree. The tippy tip was dead and a finger of a hook barely snagged the house drop.
This yanked the anchors for the weather head right off the roof, folded the weather head over and you could hear the arc running up and down the conduit to the meter… Took about a hour for the power company to show up and shut it down.

Fawk all that, not worth it… Sometimes it might be a old house with shitty wires and the power company will refuse to rehook until a upgrade, that gets uncomfortable quick.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

Reading this, my primary thought is at least around here the power company will do a free service drop disconnect. It’s another PITA with scheduling and even more of a pain if using a 3rd party crane.

There is nothing wrong with wearing spikes and using them on parts to be removed, but I also question why use a crane on a pruning job? Rarely I will use spikes and make the upmost effort to only poke the remaining part of the tree if I absolutely have to. When I do that it might be only one foot inwards from the finish cut, but really if spikes have to be worn I’d really look at the big picture to see what’s wrong with the puzzle.

Yes, I’ve had service drops disconnected before, and had I rigged everything out, I might’ve had all those wires disconnected. Considering what happened, maybe next time I will anyway.

Lol, you’re not the first person to question using a crane for a prune. But it eliminated having to lower anything near the wires. Not to mention, some of the stuff we took off this tree had some good sized, heavy wood. I’m not one to needlessly make a job bigger than it needs to be and I’m sure if I really wanted to we could’ve rigged it out, but I chose to go this avenue instead.