Hemlock snag...filled with metal

rico said:
one of the very first things I teach a groundie is to always pull in a direct line with the tagline and TO NEVER hang on the tagline, or pull it sideways...
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good advice.

after looking at the video again, it would have been better for the men to stand behind that small clump of trees and use the anchor tree and other trees for footholds. The climber actually reaches back and grabs a tree for support with one hand while pulling with the other. While it was enough to get the job done, the first thing I teach anyone is to use everything to your advantage. That was not it!

Many would be surprised at how much additional pulling power you can get when putting a foot up on a tree or curb. It makes a big difference.
 
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I am surprised that very basic functions which are fundamental to being a good tree-man frequently slip through the cracks.. Ya know, things as basic and fundamental as knowing how to properly pull on a tagline...Mind blowing, really!
 
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How to pull on a pull line, while good to know and details do matter is not often a crucial factor in performing at a high level. For those of us that pull with equipment in the vast majority of our falls, it's a non-factor... until it isn't.

And there are other methods that increase your MA, that would be much more of a factor that are worth knowing and using when appropriate. It was surprising to me that when I made up the system for using a 2:1 system with the rope natural crotched around the top of the spar (or tree), that I had never seen or heard of anyone advocating the technique before. Funny, that many before that time would go to the trouble to isolate a line, just so they could use a running bowline to pull on a single line when the doubled line was easier to set and much more effective.

Most will be just fine pulling slightly offset to the line etc. It's not that big a deal. But again details do matter, and the principle of throw everything to your advantage is an important operational method.
 
Daniel said:
It was surprising to me that when I made up the system for using a 2:1 system with the rope natural crotched around the top of the spar (or tree), that I had never seen or heard of anyone advocating the technique before.
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I'm not sure that I've used this technique for felling, typically instead of isolating I set up a basal tie, but I have done that 2:1 technique when breaking out a crispy top that couldn't be climbed. It works well, and for my use it has the added benefit of being retrievable if a certain limb is strong enough not to break, as opposed to sending a running bowline up.
 
Daniel said:
How to pull on a pull line, while good to know and details do matter is not often a crucial factor in performing at a high level. For those of us that pull with equipment in the vast majority of our falls, it's a non-factor... until it isn't.

And there are other methods that increase your MA, that would be much more of a factor that are worth knowing and using when appropriate. It was surprising to me that when I made up the system for using a 2:1 system with the rope natural crotched around the top of the spar (or tree), that I had never seen or heard of anyone advocating the technique before. Funny, that many before that time would go to the trouble to isolate a line, just so they could use a running bowline to pull on a single line when the doubled line was easier to set and much more effective.

Most will be just fine pulling slightly offset to the line etc. It's not that big a deal. But again details do matter, and the principle of throw everything to your advantage is an important operational method.
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Nothing could be more "crucial" to "performing at a high level" than NOT having your spar/log/top sitting back into its backcut..So yes, even though its an extremely simple procedure when done properly, pulling on a tagline can be a maker breaker moment in tree work...
 
As I said earlier I am not fan of hand pulls and I avoid them as much as possible.. That doesnt change the fact that if your gonna use a hand pull you really should do them properly...
 
I see you two have come to a consensus, well if this thread was good for nothing else, that is definitely a positive :). Daniel, I do take heed to your criticism of the lady on the porch being close enough to the drop zone to be of adequate concern. That was an oversight on my part, and a good wake up call. I appreciate your comment.
 
If you want someone to say you're fast, then I will. NO messing around with the climbing saw and good control of the limbs, through hand manipulation and cutting technique. Just watch those details and be careful not to push it too fast for the camera to a point where you lose focus on the task at hand. I've done it and also have missed many awesome shots because I didn't want the distraction of dealing with cameras.

p.s. any "consensus" with Rico is likely to be shortlived.
 
Daniel said:
If you want someone to say you're fast, then I will. NO messing around with the climbing saw and good control of the limbs, through hand manipulation and cutting technique. Just watch those details and be careful not to push it too fast for the camera to a point where you lose focus on the task at hand. I've done it and also have missed many awesome shots because I didn't want the distraction of dealing with cameras.

p.s. any "consensus" with Rico is likely to be shortlived.
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I film such a small fraction of what we do. Im not convinced that I act any different on camera than I normally would, maybe...not sure. I'm an aggressive natured person when it comes to work, and you are right, my safety protocols could use some improvement. We have grown so fast as a company that I think my tireless focus on amping up production ability has taken away from building a strong foundation of safety protocols and procedures. I can admit it (that doesn't include rocking that hemlock Rico, lol). I am almost completely self-taught and the little tutelage I have received has had nothing to do with safety. But I agree that that aspect of my game needs a little polishing.
 
Self taught? That explains a lot..I guess you can't teach yourself what you don't know. You know, things as rudimentary and basic as how to properly pull on a tagline....

This is why spending a few years under the tutelage and watchful eye of a true pro is so important. Exponentially speeds up the old learning curve...
 
rico said:
Self taught? That explains a lot..I guess you can't teach yourself what you don't know. You know, things as rudimentary and basic as how to properly pull on a tagline....

This is why spending a few years under the tutelage and watchful eye of a true pro is so important. Exponentially speeds up the old learning curve...
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Not all of us have that luxury, and life is not something you can always plan out. Im curious though Rico, what is it about me that gives you such an axe to grind? Or do you just have one in general? And stop blaming your vehemence on that little bitty rock back of that silly tree, or how deathly important it is to pull on a rope a certain way. Lets face it, there's more to the story. I would also love to hear you elaborate on your decision to pull away from youtube. Is it the content of certain videos that supposedly promulgates hate, or is it the comments of the viewers?
 
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An axe to grind? Fucking please. I suggest you go back and re-read the first few comments
here. You could have simply accepted the constructive criticism that others had to offer, and made it a learning moment. Instead you chose to get defensive, begin insulting men who have been in the saddle longer than you have been alive, call folks soft, and continue with your storyline that there was no operator error while you and the peanut gallery were pulling over that spar. The problem is that your vid tells a very different story. The story of a self taught tree-man who clearly doesn't understand that allowing a spar to sit back on your wedges is never a good thing , and continuing to do so will eventually lead to disastrous results.
 
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You know................ it's an odd thing in this business. there are certain safety protocols that seem ridiculous.
So those who get all righteous when they see someone violating them (like falling one tree waist-high without chaps or one-handing safely) also seem ridiculous. Most experienced pros are going to choose when to follow the rules and when to break them. We don't want to be limited by the same rules of saw handling that apply to a rookie.

ON THE OTHER HAND... there is a mindset of safety consciousness and awareness that the best guys out there have. When someone doesn't have it (Human is the best example) you know some bad things are bound to happen. It takes experience and knowledge and the human factor. It's in the mindset. Always thinking about safety and what could go wrong, and paying attention to the details, correcting systemic problems when small mishaps show up etc.

I'm pretty good at spotting that safety mindset (or lack of it) in people.

There is a local arb by the name of Billy Bascome and I've worked with him many times. Mostly running the bucket for him or falling trees or teaming up on a crane job. He has that safety mindset. He doesn't miss a thing! One time I turned a wheel of the chip truck into a granite curb to park it for the night and he said something about all the pressure on the tire. He was raised in the business. So he was trained to think like that from an early age. Those of us that weren't, need to learn it on our own.

There's another climber I worked with a bunch of years ago. He was fast at bombing trees. At the time he didn't care much for roping and would rather just cut small pieces and bomb everything. He didn't have the mindset for safety and generally didn't care much about trees either. Before we parted ways, I kindly told him that he should get out of the business. I told him he was going to get hurt. And within a couple of years, he had fallen 40 feet and broken his back for lack of the ability to belay himself out of the tree. If I told you how stupid that was, you would just cringe!

Details matter, as does technique. While I don't care much for Rico, I wouldn't have taken a closer look at the video if he hadn't been so aggressive in his criticism. Upon a closer look, there are a number of details that you could improve upon. That left handed one-handing above your shoulder seems like it wouldn't take much for that to go bad. And the low undercut, and the people in the DZ, and the pulling technique. All a sign that you aren't paying attention to the details in a way that shows a strong safety mindset.

There is a mathematical relationship between the number of small mishaps, close calls, and near misses, and major injury/fatality. If you are having those small mishaps, you need to change before something really bad happens. Hopefully, this thread might save a life if it leads to re-evaluation and a change in safety mindset and protocols. That's the best thing about these forums. They really can save lives!

p.s. congratulations on learning this business on your own. That's something to be proud of, but also recognize it as a limitation. You don't have the benefit of learning from someone with decades of experience. So be careful.
 
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rico said:
An axe to grind? Fucking please. I suggest you go back and re-read the first few comments
here. You could have simply accepted the constructive criticism that others had to offer, and made it a learning moment. Instead you chose to get defensive, begin insulting men who have been in the saddle longer than you have been alive, call folks soft, and continue with your storyline that there was no operator error while you and the peanut gallery were pulling over that spar. The problem is that your vid tells a very different story. The story of a self taught tree-man who clearly doesn't understand that allowing a spar to sit back on your wedges is never a good thing , and continuing to do so will eventually lead to disastrous results.
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I hate to admit it, but I agree with Rico here. Yes, he is harsh and rude and ugly and has little care for the truth, but that's just him. Best not to take it personally (good luck with that) and re-evaluate.

I think that leaving a spectator in the DZ is a whole lot worse than the little bit of rock back, especially on hemlock with no side lean. But I think we can all agree that together, they compound the danger. So leaving ANYONE in the potential DZ is a systemic problem that needs to be corrected.

One of the best climbers I ever worked with got all upset when I shut him down for running the blower before falling a tree that had obvious lean away from the lawn where he was working. He had just topped the tree and there was zero question that he was in no danger. BUT that is a safety policy that I don't violate. No one in the potential dz (say 110-115% tree height) before the back cut starts, except the faller. There were a couple of new guys there that day and I didn't want to set a bad example, so they might get the wrong impression that it's ok to be in the dz. For the little time and energy it takes to clear the dz for the short time it takes to fall the tree, that policy makes sense to me.

Brady's video is also a good example of a situation where improving technique will lead to obvious safety improvements. If you had doubled that line on the top of the spar, natural crotch, tied one end of to a ground anchor and set up the same 3:1 z rig on the other end, there would have been near twice as much force on the tree, so you wouldn't have to jerk the line to get the tree moving. You could have had a nice steady pull. You might not have even needed the third man. That would have been an easy and effective solution, making the job both safer and easier.

And if you needed even more pull, it's not hard to set up a block on the working end of the pull line for 2:1 system, and then use your 3:1 on that.
 
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I'm kinda confused here Daniel.. Am I correct in my assessment of the tagline technique displayed in this video, or do I have "little care for the truth"? I do apologize for asking but as per the usual you are talking in circles.
 
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