Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????????

Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

[ QUOTE ]
Recently I attended an areial rescue practice put on by a nationally known trainning company. When questioned about an old NAA AR video that showed lots of free climbing, the instructor said that it is allowed for rescue situations. During the practice students were told to free climb and that we did not have to follow the Z in rescue sitiuations if it is deemed OK by the employer. Newbie climbers were actually told to "forget the hitch and just free climb". (At least they were on belay.)



Doesn't sound right to me.

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Do you mean they were being belayed like in a rock climbing situation? Tied into a rope anchored higher in the tree with a belayer on the ground?
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Recently I attended an areial rescue practice put on by a nationally known trainning company. When questioned about an old NAA AR video that showed lots of free climbing, the instructor said that it is allowed for rescue situations. During the practice students were told to free climb and that we did not have to follow the Z in rescue sitiuations if it is deemed OK by the employer. Newbie climbers were actually told to "forget the hitch and just free climb". (At least they were on belay.)



Doesn't sound right to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean they were being belayed like in a rock climbing situation? Tied into a rope anchored higher in the tree with a belayer on the ground?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is correct.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

That is stupid. Typically, the person doing the rescuing (ie, the person on the ground) wouldn't be the best climber anyways. Why go and make matters worse by telling them to forget the rope?

love
nick
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

OM,

ISA has them for sale.

****


Free climbing is irresponsible in a work situation and totally unacceptable in a rescue.

What's worse than one victim who needs rescue?

...two...

How could an administrator answer a question about disregarding industry formulated standards and procedures? There might be room for discussion when it comes to the A300 but it would be really hard to defend a deviation from the Z133. The employer would have to prove that following the Z wuld put the employees at greater risk. There are only a few, rare circumstances that this could be justified. There are opt-out protocols built into the Z for just those situations.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

I think that it's terrible that we have to pay to see the industry standards. Many people who otherwise would at least look at them will never pay even a small amount. Of course, it's not very much, but that seems like one thing that should be freely available. Cost could be recouped in other ways.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

i'll agree with that. If the regs where freely available online for anyone to go over, email passages etc. there would be more compliance and awareness. Even if jsut sporadic, it would be more. Should/ Shall we pay to read the criminal laws too?

And if it is really about safety and not the almighty dollar; i challenge them to do so! Everyone needs money it seems, but enough stuff is given away in this manner by others. the cost isn't much is true, but if they aren't selling truckloads a month, they wouldn't be out much! And, the amount of traffic and advertising on a site that people where reading and downloading from could smooth that over.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

Trees 4,

The discussion about the standard being free comes up every once in a while. Although it would be nice, it currently is not feasible.

The committee that creates the standard is made up of volunteers. We pay all of our costs to attend the meetings. The ISA publishes the document. ANSI oversees the process. There are costs associated with the process. Do you have some suggestions for how we could give it away?

That being said, we are one of the lowest cost ANSI standards out there. Most are around $100. Even if you are not a member of ISA or TCIA, you will only have to pay $25. If you are a member of TCIA you get at least one free. Many of them come with training programs.

The questions that I ask people who are not happy about the price are:

1. Do you have a copy of all of the laws that impact your daily life? (State, Federal, OSHA, etc.) These are all free.

2. If you had a copy of the ANSI standard, would you follow it?

3. How much money do you pay for other safety related materials?

This may not be the case with you Trees 4, but many of the times that people complain about having to pay for the standard it is just another excuse not to be safe.

Lastly, the document is something that has been created by professionals based on fatal, and other, accidents in the profession. Following the document will reduce your risk of injury and death. Why wouldn’t you follow it?

TMW
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

Of course those are good points; and i applaud those lending time, expertise, gas etc. to convene and produce this document.

But, i do find some contradiction in charging for it; then chastising those that say they don't follow this or that (hearing protection equipment wise etc. or Tieing Twice methodology wise) becasue of direct, time or relearning costs. Once again, if it was online; the increased traffic to the site should be worth something in advertising/sales of other products, memberships etc. If advertised well on said site; as well as decreasing distribution and printing costs? This would have double possible benifit of decreasing costs and increaseing incomes from other products and exposures?

i think it would even be more quoted and refernced; get more growth, input; possibly even relieveing some of the workload of the volunteers. Even if everyone had a copy; it would be more quoteable online, never get lost online; and some people might still buy a hard copy; especially if packaged with other things. Then of course; it just might save one more life; through deeper saturation, reduce reasons for not following it and set visible standards for non-tree peoples to judge tree peoples by. Some customers are very hard to please, do research, come from other fields of safety standards etc.; let them tell someone they need to be tied in 2x if they want to continue job!
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

How about applying for a grant through the Tree Fund or others. These resources are used to promote safety and education. Ansi falls under both those categories making it well spent money.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

Kenny you got a good-sounding idea with the online standard availability, especially the safety Z. ISA and TCIA could put it on their sites on separate pages that ran ads for PPE, maybe that would make up for the lost sales? You should run that one by your ISA chapter rep.

Me I look at the $15 and say it's money well spent. I carry all the standards around with me to show clients and colleagues. It's a cheap way to elevate the profession, and your place in it.

When some landscaper tells me it's right to vlcano-mulch or flush-cut, I just whip out the planting or pruning standard and point.
Saves a lot of talk.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

Thanks for the info Tom and Guy Mayor.


I was joking when I said it but I do think it would be more palatable to some if it came in comic book form or at least highly graphic. Sometimes people spend so much time honing words so tightly that you end up with a lifeless manual that would put any work exhausted tree climber to sleep.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

[ QUOTE ]
I do think it would be more palatable to some if it came in comic book form or at least highly graphic.

[/ QUOTE ] Hmm...Bryan Kotwica just left my place last night. tuesday night he'd been to see this guy McCloud who writes about comics as information delivery. Bryan's pretty keen on the concept.

At Arboristsite's Picture Forum (don't ban
blush.gif
me TD!) this guy Max Burton sent in some of the comic strips his sister draws to send to clients to promote proper practices--and his biz. They looked effective to me.

Hmm...
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

There are many different learning styles, I think that people need to find what works for them.

When I had my company, everyone got a copy of the current standard (1994 revision back then) as well as a seperate training guide listing the specific areas of the standard that I felt to be important.

Find what works for you and your crews and use it. It does come in Spanish as well. If your crews speak another language, work with one of them who is bilingual and translate an abridged version for them.

My main point with the Z is that following it will reduce risk associated with what we do. You can argue that you don't like certain areas, but following it can keep people alive (if you really don't like something, make suggestions and send them to the ISA, there is a form in the back of the standard to do so).

1. Using two tie-in points when using a chain saw in the tree will reduce the risk of a fall due to cutting your only tie-in point.
2. Not drop starting chain saws ( and making sure the chain brake is set) reduces the type of injury that Allmark was talking about.
3. No free climbing reduces the falls
4. Not feeding chippers with your feet reduces the chance of being chipped
5. etc.
6. etc.


TMW
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

[ QUOTE ]
I know they're tough once they do show up. Since attending the arborist apprentice training I've equipped myself in accordance with the regs and have adhered to the them despite resistance from co-workers and employers.

The attitude that prevails is comfort and ease first, safety second.

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A brief but good post. Good for you for sticking to you guns. It's hard to do when you're surrounded by naysayers all day. Your last line is very accurate. I think we've all seen that attitude.

I even had a employee who insisted that he was less safe when wearing a hardhat because it was uncomfortable and therefore distracting. I fired him.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

"...At Arboristsite's Picture Forum (don't ban me TD!) ..."

Banning is not a TB policy.

Cross linking to other relevant threads is always encouraged!
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

How about One handed chain saw use thats out right.Correct me if im wrong if im way out on a limb cant go any farther and can only reach the dead stub im cutting with one hand(test it you can reach alot farther one handed)what do i do.Also I see alot of people on this sight approve equipment and gear that is not approved by ansi but ,I guess thats ok cause they like that stuff.In fact in other post I see some of the same folks talking about obeying ansi but they openly disobey kinda weird huh.I really dont care,but I try to obey ansi, unless i feel it could effect my safety.yeah sometimes I have that get er done mentality and forget but im about 95 % of the time im right on.Been in biz for a long time and some old habits die hard. sometimes its hard to see something as unsafe that you have been doin for twenty years and not have been injured doin.But im listening and breaking this hard head on some small stuff. But im not preaching the standards to everyone and then openly going against them when some new tool comes out thats not approved.whatever I realy dont care what anyone does just practice what you preach.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

ANSI does not approve equipment, they set various standards.

There are certainly a lot of gray areas in the standards where interpretation is expected.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

my fault Tom i thought harnesses had to be ansi approved.I didnt think they where a part of the z standards,just had to be tested and approved before we could work in them.Sorry maybe I was wrong.Honestly what standards do I legally need to follow.Ansi,osha?What if osha imspects one of our job sites(which has never happened but I heard it does some on hurricane work]do they have standards to comply to?I try to follow the Z for safety purposes but im real black and white on stuff,so guess its harder for me to define the gray areas.
 
Re: Green Light to Ignore ANSI Z133.1?????????????

[ QUOTE ]
Also I see alot of people on this sight approve equipment and gear that is not approved by ansi ...In fact in other post I see some of the same folks talking about obeying ansi but they openly disobey

[/ QUOTE ]

Examples??
 
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