good load bearing knot for joining two lines???

Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

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...I think you're referring to the link I provided above:

http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html


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I'm old; I am expected to miss things like that; I'm just living up to expectations.

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...But note this is not a 'double' overhand, but a 'doubled', single overhand (two ropes forming a single overhand).

Moyer calls it a 'flat overhand bend', and 'Euro Death-Knot'.

The February issue of Arborist News magazine has an article that discusses (among other knots) the double overhand.

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Thanks Mahk, as I indicated, I wasn't sure what the actual name was. But, I don't have to remember it, because I'm old and I'm not expected to remember things.

You know I'm just kiddin', right? Well I'm kiddin' about not remembering - I just can't get out of this can I?
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Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

Another great discussion!

i think everyone should know there aren't very many places on the net that have working knot class talk. For years i'd stop in at the IGKT forum; and in there general section, working class knot speak was thin even there. Now that section of there site is renamed to "Fancy and Decorative Knotwork" and the other forum there remains "Chit Chat" they are sure to attract even less "Real" knot talk as we f'riggin know it.

That is sooooooooo backwierd to me; that those that depend their lives and livelihood on gut wrenching work and overcoming such impossible odds with rope don't have that many places to research. Especially when 90% of knots and rope work came from before the mast; like from some of our closest cousins in roping and knotting; as well as hard working. There is moutain rescue types that are closer; but, perhaps are more recreational; and not stuck out at sea daily with nothing but their ingenuity and a hunk of 1/2" line.

Personally (and the t-reason for writing this) i think perhaps this sub-forum could be renamed to reflect some how knotting directly(Knotting, Rigging and Roping?); to give perhaps those from other disciplines a flag as to one of the lone such islands. We are lucky that knudeNoggin sought hard enough to find us without that flag. There are probably other working knot specialists and scientists that like him would contribute richly; if they could only find us...
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Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

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There's some tests done by Tom Moyers that ...

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... show that the *offset* (THAT's the term, prefer it to "flat"**) forms
of the Fig.8 & Overhand have some vulnerability to flyping, esp.
if not well tied (dressed & set), and wet. But the usual application
of such bends is for joing abseil ropes, where there is no great
force expected--rather different than that of the OP here.
[** Similarly, "flat" is a stupid term for distinguishing webbing,
which by definition is so: "tubular" vs "solid" is sensible! :-]

There are subtleties regarding at least these offset bends that Tom
didn't pay attention to, in addition to the chance that with different
materials the results would differ--but I think that in using dynamic
ropes and mis-matched-dia ropes he covers some important cases.
(A rope that is more elastic is more apt to deform and allow the
flyping than one that pretty well stays as tied.) A particular subtlety
which I've noted in various cases (and in images to Tom) is that one
can *dial* these offset knots to different positions relative the the
axis of loading--ends parallel (one case) or perpendicular (the two
end-of-rotational-range cases) to it--; these might influence the
vulnerability to flyping (capsizing inside-out).

Tom does have in that report 3 tests of the Dble.Fisherman's (aka
"Grapevine", "Dbl.Overhand" bends) knot; but this isn't a knot that
is easily untied after heavy loading--quite the contrary.

*kN*
 
Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

Interesting. Everytime I've tried to untie a stressed Dbl. Fishermans, it's been significantly more difficult than other choices.

I believe it is in the book, "On Rope" it is stated that tests have shown that after a dbl fisherman's is loaded to about 340 lbs, IIRC that weight correctly, the fisherman's is all but impossible to untie.
 
Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

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I made a youtube vid of one method of tyeing the Zeppelin. Sorry I didn't have two different colored ropes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O7PgfkqskA

Scott there's a similar knot to the Zeppelin that is called the Hunter's Bend. I attached a photo.

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Very nice clip. I expecially like the song. What song is that?
 
Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

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Very nice clip. I expecially like the song. What song is that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dropkick Murphys - Shipping up to Boston
 
For bending two lines try the Strait bend, it's in Toss's "Knots for Boaters". I don't know how well it works with dissimilar size lines under load. For loading with the same size rope it is definitely the most trustworthy, not-too-bulky, and it unties easy. Just fold the ears back and it will work loose. Toss describes it as essentially a butterfly knot made from two ropes. The two ends exit the knot together, so it also runs around trunk wraps pretty much the way you would want it to.

I guess I don't know the last time I've actually used a true single sheet-bend. I'll probably teach it to my boys when they're old enough for the Boy Scouts.
 
Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

One of my favorites for bend, mend, eye, multiple bend and needing to know less knots /1 to do all. Multi-purpose Butterfly as Bend .

L-earning things in groups helps more too i think, that way when you make something one way, in the back of your mind you can be coaching yourself that this is the same as that, this next difference determines the different knot that is finished etc. This can help make you more fluent and fast to deploy stuff, if you feel like you are learning and studying 3 knots at once, and all those lessons in dressing etc. for that particular class are carried forward to all, with each single instance. There is a lot to L-earn; a lot of feel to be captured etc.; i kinda look at it as Leveraged L-earning. Thus, a Bowline is a Sheet to self to form eye, a Double Noose/Scaffold/ whatever you call it is an Anchor to self to form eye, etc.

i think it is proper in using it for a mid eye to note that it is best as a mid and not end eye/ it is best i think that the eye isn't loaded; or if loaded is loaded last, less or equal too the ends. i've used it occasionally as where 1 end hangs free, and force flow travels from one end to an eye; but personally don't think that is mechanically correct (nor as easy to untie); and should be watched more carefully.
 
Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

I don't use a butterfly as a midline loop very often because I've had some trouble getting them untied. I suppose it doesn't really 'jam' but it's not a knot for heavy loads I don't think.
 
Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

Just wanted to say that putting things into your knots, to keep them from becoming too tight, is a bad idea. We just had a GF get killed when a rope broke, and the knot with the stick in it struck him in the head.
 
Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

Wow. I've always thought the stick in a knot was a bit chumpy, and usually pointed to a need for learning a better knot, but I never thought it could result in a funeral.

I've made some slings using a carrick bend with the ends held with round seizings and have been amazed at how much load they took without the knot collapsing. Maybe the ends could be held by sheet bends or something similar and then the Carrick bend would be a little more useful on the job?
Time better spent tying than untying.
 
Re: good load bearing knot for joining two lines??

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Just wanted to say that putting things into your knots, to keep them from becoming too tight, is a bad idea. We just had a GF get killed when a rope broke, and the knot with the stick in it struck him in the head.

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How terrible.
But there was a problem there irrespective of the stick
--being in line with the rope, et cetera.
Too bad.

*kN*
 
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