Gaffing conifers while pruning
- Thread starter zebhaney
- Start date
"You actually believe that this causes no damage? I don't know how to respond to that. It is also worth pointing out that very thick barked firs are probably way older than your grandparents. Is that any way to treat them?"
"If SRT-climbing arborists sound shrill, perhaps it's because it seems so absurd and frustrating to us that anyone would continue to unnecessarily spike trees when there is a better way. Zeb's got it: those big conifers are made to be climbed SRT."
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I'm wondering, Do the Rec climb folks think that what they do while climbing trees is harmless? And also, if you are a professional Arborist that rec climbs trees without PPE and let's just say you get poked in the eye, is that a black eye on your profession. Or can you justify it because you were playing not working. What if it happened to a client that you were "guiding" into a significant tree?
As for your question Zeb, I would report the offenders to the appropriate entity. It's their job to police. If they can't or won't deal with it, then they are just telling you what their certifications are worth. Once youve done that, concentrate on the business that you have %100 control over. Yours. My 2 cents
"If SRT-climbing arborists sound shrill, perhaps it's because it seems so absurd and frustrating to us that anyone would continue to unnecessarily spike trees when there is a better way. Zeb's got it: those big conifers are made to be climbed SRT."
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I'm wondering, Do the Rec climb folks think that what they do while climbing trees is harmless? And also, if you are a professional Arborist that rec climbs trees without PPE and let's just say you get poked in the eye, is that a black eye on your profession. Or can you justify it because you were playing not working. What if it happened to a client that you were "guiding" into a significant tree?
As for your question Zeb, I would report the offenders to the appropriate entity. It's their job to police. If they can't or won't deal with it, then they are just telling you what their certifications are worth. Once youve done that, concentrate on the business that you have %100 control over. Yours. My 2 cents
we're starting to split hairs here and bringing cultural relativism into arboriculture (I will spur up trees on my property and hope that the tree declines to increase habitat and open up the forest for increased diversity). But here's a question for Zeb and Will especially (with no disrespect): your client has a rapidly declining Douglas fir, that will be slated for removal in the next season or 2 when budget allows for it. Your client wants some hazard branches removed in the meantime. Although setting a line is no problem for you, it proves to be considerably quicker to spur up a bit to get the branches. Technically, this is a prune job. But would you spur it to save time for yourself and your client?
- Location
- Federal Way WA
Good hypothetical, Jeff. Here is the thing, even if I were to spur up I would be using a second line, not just my flipline, either choked around the trunk and moved up as I go, or I would install it from the ground as an overhead belay. So, why would I spur the tree?
So, I would answer no. Not just because of the pruning vs. removal, but because I am very good at the throwline and SRT, so I doubt it would be faster to spur.
Back to the thread.
So, I would answer no. Not just because of the pruning vs. removal, but because I am very good at the throwline and SRT, so I doubt it would be faster to spur.
Back to the thread.
- Location
- Federal Way WA
ANSI 8.1.20 While working aloft, the climber shall have available a climbing line and at least one other means of being secured on their person at all times. (Example: an arborist climbing line and a work positioning lanyard.) Two means of being secured shall be used when the arborist determines that it is advantageous.
You asked a hypothetical, Jeff. I answered. You're a really good climbing arborist, Jeff. Why are you defending an outmoded, unsafe, old school approach?
You asked a hypothetical, Jeff. I answered. You're a really good climbing arborist, Jeff. Why are you defending an outmoded, unsafe, old school approach?
- Location
- Penticton, British Columbia
Zeb, I hear ya on your argument. In your situation, as the education level of your clientele increases, either your competitor will immediately cease spiking prunes or your reputation as an arborist representing BMP's and quality will rise. The frustrating thing is the interim, in which your competitor continues to falsely represent its practices.
But, this doesn't give you a black eye. Why take a punch for the hacks? If you feel your website looks too similar to your competitors...change it. You know who you are and you know the level of quality your company represents.
As Primeape says, report it to the ISA or TCIA, hell, see if you can't get a spot on a local radio show or newspaper. The point is to focus on the things you can change...this sounds familiar.
I recently walked by a beech near my place which was once beautiful, now whacked by some bucknut with a saw. These sorts of things, as well as the example of folks spiking prunes to increase productivity are aggravating to people, take this with a grain of salt, like you and I who try our darndest to do the right thing. The best thing one could do is offer some unsolicited advice to these folks, perhaps they'd learn something, and perhaps the result would be more therapeutic.
Have a good week fellas.
But, this doesn't give you a black eye. Why take a punch for the hacks? If you feel your website looks too similar to your competitors...change it. You know who you are and you know the level of quality your company represents.
As Primeape says, report it to the ISA or TCIA, hell, see if you can't get a spot on a local radio show or newspaper. The point is to focus on the things you can change...this sounds familiar.
I recently walked by a beech near my place which was once beautiful, now whacked by some bucknut with a saw. These sorts of things, as well as the example of folks spiking prunes to increase productivity are aggravating to people, take this with a grain of salt, like you and I who try our darndest to do the right thing. The best thing one could do is offer some unsolicited advice to these folks, perhaps they'd learn something, and perhaps the result would be more therapeutic.
Have a good week fellas.
- Location
- Federal Way WA
I might add.
8.1.22 The arborist shall be secured at all times while ascending the tree, including when using climbing spurs/gaffs. The arborist shall be tied in once the work begins and shall be remain tied in until the work is completed and he or she has returned to the ground. The
arborist shall be secured when repositioning the climbing line.
8.1.22 The arborist shall be secured at all times while ascending the tree, including when using climbing spurs/gaffs. The arborist shall be tied in once the work begins and shall be remain tied in until the work is completed and he or she has returned to the ground. The
arborist shall be secured when repositioning the climbing line.
- Location
- North of Seattle
This means:
While spuring up a tree using flipline, climber must have a climbing line with them, not neccesarily choked around the stem... Not to say it is not better to be tied in twice, just not manditory unless preparing to reposition the climbing line. Or operating chainsaw or handsaw.
QUESTION: How is spur climbing any more unsafe than any other method of ascending a tree?
p.s. - report them to TCIA, Zeb. Then leave it at that.
While spuring up a tree using flipline, climber must have a climbing line with them, not neccesarily choked around the stem... Not to say it is not better to be tied in twice, just not manditory unless preparing to reposition the climbing line. Or operating chainsaw or handsaw.
QUESTION: How is spur climbing any more unsafe than any other method of ascending a tree?
p.s. - report them to TCIA, Zeb. Then leave it at that.
- Location
- Pukalani, Hawaii
i would report them.
if someone is going around representing the TCIA and ISA and is spiking trees on prunes i would report them ASAP. its only a matter of time before people see companies climbing trees with spikes on pruning jobs and think its the normal procedure. then where does that leave us "pros" who are educated in tree health and safety???
if someone is going around representing the TCIA and ISA and is spiking trees on prunes i would report them ASAP. its only a matter of time before people see companies climbing trees with spikes on pruning jobs and think its the normal procedure. then where does that leave us "pros" who are educated in tree health and safety???
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
[ QUOTE ]
...here's a question for Zeb and Will especially (with no disrespect): your client has a rapidly declining Douglas fir, that will be slated for removal in the next season or 2 when budget allows for it. Your client wants some hazard branches removed in the meantime. Although setting a line is no problem for you, it proves to be considerably quicker to spur up a bit to get the branches. Technically, this is a prune job. But would you spur it to save time for yourself and your client?
[/ QUOTE ]
The answer to this hypothetical is a big NO. What if this client sells, and the next wants to keep the trees? She calls a consultant who points out all these holes in the tree. Who did this work? he asks. Oh, it was that jeff guy, she answers...
Your hypothetical is quite a stretch anyway since pruning in advance of removal increases total budget, so it seems quite improbable for a tree owner who's budget-limited to pay you twice for the same tree.
Two pages ago I asked about phellogen, but that fell on deaf ears. Phellogen is cork cambium, living tissues in the bark that are vulnerable to infection by wounding by spikes. So when you say you are tiptoeing and you say your spikes aren't entering cambium, think...how do you know this? Sounds like "...but I didn't inhale"
How many young climbers have read A New Tree Biology?
...here's a question for Zeb and Will especially (with no disrespect): your client has a rapidly declining Douglas fir, that will be slated for removal in the next season or 2 when budget allows for it. Your client wants some hazard branches removed in the meantime. Although setting a line is no problem for you, it proves to be considerably quicker to spur up a bit to get the branches. Technically, this is a prune job. But would you spur it to save time for yourself and your client?
[/ QUOTE ]
The answer to this hypothetical is a big NO. What if this client sells, and the next wants to keep the trees? She calls a consultant who points out all these holes in the tree. Who did this work? he asks. Oh, it was that jeff guy, she answers...
Your hypothetical is quite a stretch anyway since pruning in advance of removal increases total budget, so it seems quite improbable for a tree owner who's budget-limited to pay you twice for the same tree.
Two pages ago I asked about phellogen, but that fell on deaf ears. Phellogen is cork cambium, living tissues in the bark that are vulnerable to infection by wounding by spikes. So when you say you are tiptoeing and you say your spikes aren't entering cambium, think...how do you know this? Sounds like "...but I didn't inhale"
How many young climbers have read A New Tree Biology?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
I gaffed a 6" pine once to fetch a cat. The limbs were so skinny i didn't trust them. I suppose I should've girthed it but I've never had to do that and didn't think of it at the time.
Avoiding damage to preservation trees is a characteristic that distinguishes arborists from tree cutters and hacks. Same goes for cambium savers, rigging blocks, collar cuts, etc.
Avoiding damage to preservation trees is a characteristic that distinguishes arborists from tree cutters and hacks. Same goes for cambium savers, rigging blocks, collar cuts, etc.
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
Maybe what you should do is offer a class on spurless rope access and invite the company you saw.
Say, " i saw your guys climbing the other day and they were using some ineefecient out of date practices, I want to offer some training that will drastically increase the production and the health of the tree."
Out of all the arborist skills that I have, The thowline skill is my most valuable skill. It makes me more money than anything/hour. I could climb around the tree like a monkey but if I couldnt set a line than it would be pointless.
Throwline is one of my favorite things to do also. Hitting the perfect crotch is akin to nailing a strike in bowling, scoring a goal, etc. It makes or breaks a climb. Im not really familiar with west coast trees.
I would give that view cuttings are a special case, a lot of view cuttings are bassically mass hack-a-thons anyway. I worked for a very reputable company in North Carolina that was basically forced by incredible demand to do view cuttings. There isn't any real way to do some of those with the tree in mind. We didn't spur them, but I wouldnt have felt any worse about what we did to some of those trees.
Say, " i saw your guys climbing the other day and they were using some ineefecient out of date practices, I want to offer some training that will drastically increase the production and the health of the tree."
Out of all the arborist skills that I have, The thowline skill is my most valuable skill. It makes me more money than anything/hour. I could climb around the tree like a monkey but if I couldnt set a line than it would be pointless.
Throwline is one of my favorite things to do also. Hitting the perfect crotch is akin to nailing a strike in bowling, scoring a goal, etc. It makes or breaks a climb. Im not really familiar with west coast trees.
I would give that view cuttings are a special case, a lot of view cuttings are bassically mass hack-a-thons anyway. I worked for a very reputable company in North Carolina that was basically forced by incredible demand to do view cuttings. There isn't any real way to do some of those with the tree in mind. We didn't spur them, but I wouldnt have felt any worse about what we did to some of those trees.
treewill
Participating member
- Location
- Everywhere and nowhere
[ QUOTE ]
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I'm wondering, Do the Rec climb folks think that what they do while climbing trees is harmless? And also, if you are a professional Arborist that rec climbs trees without PPE and let's just say you get poked in the eye, is that a black eye on your profession. Or can you justify it because you were playing not working. What if it happened to a client that you were "guiding" into a significant tree?
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh really? Is this your attempt at a personal attack? Perhaps I am misreading this, but that seems unlikely. For the record:
1. I am a professional working arborist, not a rec climber. The bottom two links on my signature are the companies I work for.
2. The top link is a non-profit I co-founded 4 years ago to advocate for big tree preservation. We are not guides and we have no clients, and we never charge people money for our work.
3. When I'm not at work, I can do whatever I want and am not bound to wear the same PPE I would at work. If I want to climb a tree with no hard hat, or no rope and saddle for that matter, you don't have any standing to tell me I can't. I'm also an avid rock climber, would you care to stand over my shoulder then and tell me to put in more protection when I'm leading a pitch?
Next time you're trying to be a jerk do your homework first.
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I'm wondering, Do the Rec climb folks think that what they do while climbing trees is harmless? And also, if you are a professional Arborist that rec climbs trees without PPE and let's just say you get poked in the eye, is that a black eye on your profession. Or can you justify it because you were playing not working. What if it happened to a client that you were "guiding" into a significant tree?
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh really? Is this your attempt at a personal attack? Perhaps I am misreading this, but that seems unlikely. For the record:
1. I am a professional working arborist, not a rec climber. The bottom two links on my signature are the companies I work for.
2. The top link is a non-profit I co-founded 4 years ago to advocate for big tree preservation. We are not guides and we have no clients, and we never charge people money for our work.
3. When I'm not at work, I can do whatever I want and am not bound to wear the same PPE I would at work. If I want to climb a tree with no hard hat, or no rope and saddle for that matter, you don't have any standing to tell me I can't. I'm also an avid rock climber, would you care to stand over my shoulder then and tell me to put in more protection when I'm leading a pitch?
Next time you're trying to be a jerk do your homework first.
You're a piece of work. I never even looked at your links . And why would you think I'd have any intentions of a personal attack. Do you think I have a reason for you to make such a statement. I was just asking a question in search of an intelligent answer. It really didn't even have to come from you. And didn't. Your pretty sensitive . I'd guess you got beat up alot as a kid.
- Location
- Federal Way WA
[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough - even though my hypothetical situation states it would be faster to spur, you won't consider that this situation exists. Give my regards to the Emperor.
[/ QUOTE ]
Been thinking about this one, Jeff. Since you've been to my house you may have noticed I am quite the Star Wars geek. I would liken gaffing trees for pruning, as in your hypothetical question, to the path of the dark side. Those dark side force users, including the Sith, are typically using the end to justify the means. They take the "easy" path, and encourage others to do the same. I cant imagine Yoda or Luke as an arborist and donning spurs to climb the tree. (Let's just forget the whole levitation thing here. And the battle between Leia and Alema Rar while in a tree with absolutely no PPE.) Come to think of it, Luke is always carrying that rappelling line on his belt.
Don't try to persuade me down the path of the dark side. Evil lurks there...
Fair enough - even though my hypothetical situation states it would be faster to spur, you won't consider that this situation exists. Give my regards to the Emperor.
[/ QUOTE ]
Been thinking about this one, Jeff. Since you've been to my house you may have noticed I am quite the Star Wars geek. I would liken gaffing trees for pruning, as in your hypothetical question, to the path of the dark side. Those dark side force users, including the Sith, are typically using the end to justify the means. They take the "easy" path, and encourage others to do the same. I cant imagine Yoda or Luke as an arborist and donning spurs to climb the tree. (Let's just forget the whole levitation thing here. And the battle between Leia and Alema Rar while in a tree with absolutely no PPE.) Come to think of it, Luke is always carrying that rappelling line on his belt.
Don't try to persuade me down the path of the dark side. Evil lurks there...
- Location
- Federal Way WA
[ QUOTE ]
"Gaffs always cause damage. Period. And the marks are detracting from the natural beauty of the tree. "
As are pruning cuts
[/ QUOTE ]
The damage done by over pruning, and making "proper" cuts at the trunk on large branches, and CADS, is a good topic for another thread.
I speculate that the same folks that could justify spurring up trees would also be the group that over prunes thinking that they can "help" the tree by cutting off a bunch of photosynthetic material, followed up by an application of high nitrogen fertilizer.
Come to think of it, I probably will start a new thread...
"Gaffs always cause damage. Period. And the marks are detracting from the natural beauty of the tree. "
As are pruning cuts
[/ QUOTE ]
The damage done by over pruning, and making "proper" cuts at the trunk on large branches, and CADS, is a good topic for another thread.
I speculate that the same folks that could justify spurring up trees would also be the group that over prunes thinking that they can "help" the tree by cutting off a bunch of photosynthetic material, followed up by an application of high nitrogen fertilizer.
Come to think of it, I probably will start a new thread...
- Location
- Federal Way WA
[ QUOTE ]
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I'm wondering, Do the Rec climb folks think that what they do while climbing trees is harmless? And also, if you are a professional Arborist that rec climbs trees without PPE and let's just say you get poked in the eye, is that a black eye on your profession. Or can you justify it because you were playing not working. What if it happened to a client that you were "guiding" into a significant tree?
[/ QUOTE ]
Primeape, When I first read this it sounded like a poke at Will and rec climbers. Perhaps you didn't mean ti that way, but there you go.
I don't know you personally, but Will I know. And the manner in which Will and other arborists who are exploring canopies of the ancient Douglas-firs and redwoods we are referring to in the trhead here is quite remarkable. Ascending the Giants has been giving a presentation at ISA events about the methods they use and the data they are collecting. I've seen Will ascend into trees, and have to say that the impact they have on a tree is extremely minimal. They protect every branch from rope friction. They stay on rope most of the time to avoid damage to ultra sensitive epiphyte based ecosystems, they don't break out dead wood or even loose hangers.
Maybe you weren't aware of these things, and I'll assume that you weren't, but besides the great care taken to preserve trees being climbed for research, they also have developed some of the innovations in SRT that people are using today.
And I might add that Will is as intelligent as he is scrappy, so give him the credit he deserves for advancing arboriculture for all of us.
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I'm wondering, Do the Rec climb folks think that what they do while climbing trees is harmless? And also, if you are a professional Arborist that rec climbs trees without PPE and let's just say you get poked in the eye, is that a black eye on your profession. Or can you justify it because you were playing not working. What if it happened to a client that you were "guiding" into a significant tree?
[/ QUOTE ]
Primeape, When I first read this it sounded like a poke at Will and rec climbers. Perhaps you didn't mean ti that way, but there you go.
I don't know you personally, but Will I know. And the manner in which Will and other arborists who are exploring canopies of the ancient Douglas-firs and redwoods we are referring to in the trhead here is quite remarkable. Ascending the Giants has been giving a presentation at ISA events about the methods they use and the data they are collecting. I've seen Will ascend into trees, and have to say that the impact they have on a tree is extremely minimal. They protect every branch from rope friction. They stay on rope most of the time to avoid damage to ultra sensitive epiphyte based ecosystems, they don't break out dead wood or even loose hangers.
Maybe you weren't aware of these things, and I'll assume that you weren't, but besides the great care taken to preserve trees being climbed for research, they also have developed some of the innovations in SRT that people are using today.
And I might add that Will is as intelligent as he is scrappy, so give him the credit he deserves for advancing arboriculture for all of us.
But Zeb you do know me personally. Most of the time is not all of the time, and minimaly is not never. I've met Will and I've seen the presentations. I did not mean any disrespect in my questions. I simply wanted his answer, or anyone elses for that matter. Will seems to be carrying a chip on his shoulder for some reason. He is the one being disrespectful in his remarks. I believe one should command respect, not demand it. I'm not into the whole Hero worship thing either. To each his own. Y'all have a great day.
[ QUOTE ]
Your hypothetical is quite a stretch anyway since pruning in advance of removal increases total budget, so it seems quite improbable for a tree owner who's budget-limited to pay you twice for the same tree.
How many young climbers have read A New Tree Biology?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not that much of a stretch, in fact, good business. I spend 10 minutes spurring up and banging off an immediate hazard, and guarantee to get the removal in the next 12 - 24 months when they've got funds. Believe it or not, there are some times we can predict when a tree will be dead, and sometimes your client can predict things too. I work with the trees and the people. I think my neighbourhood is more rural than yours and Zeb's, but certainly the trees are a bit different. But even still, you might SRT a quick branch to get the sale, in the right situation. I do that too, on trees that aren't dead or otherwise imminently dying. Anyway, this thread is way off topic. This is how its gone:
Can a company in the PNW regularly spur prune jobs in firs and be taken seriously? We all agree 'No'. Report them or something, protect yourself and your reputation.
Then we considered if it was ever OK to climb on spurs unless you were removing a tree, right then and there. Zeb says 'No'. He won't even use them for a rescue, but his rationale is based on him being very good with SRT. Its always, always, quicker, and safer.
There are others, who say that there are some times when you can spur a fir tree and rest easy as a professional, that its 'OK'. Might be this declining tree sceario I'm describing. Some of you really don't like that one. Might be a tree next to power, where throwing a line is dangerous. Just might be something out there that your Jedi powers can't handle. Of course, we're only talking about fir trees in the PNW. Not oaks, arbutus, maple, or anything in Illinois or wherever. Douglas fir, Grand fir, maybe some hemlock? You might have to 'tip-toe' up to a safe point and then take them off. Might be less damage than knocking off cool old deadwood with a line install. Maybe not. . I'm not saying all the time, I'm saying, you might see this around here. . . Or, you might have to SRT up, and when you're working on a top section that will eventually be totally removed, you might put them on. Your own tree that you are slowly going to pick away at? Is that torture? Chock a block second growth firehazard stands with trees described by the owners as 'standing firewood'? How about this one - accessing heron rookeries in huge old fir and cottonwood stands, where big colonies move from tree to tree as the trees decline from the impact. This pattern is documented. Throwlines scare the sh#t out of the birds and they'll stress out be off the eggs for too long. The data from the eggs is for the greater good, and the money is sweet, but if you miss on the first shot, its over, and its a tough one in uber-dense underbrush.. Never, never, ever? Come on.
Of course, its all about the balance, just like the Force. The Jedi were on the one side, with their fascination with the light sabre and meditation. . and the hacks in the dark side, with their spurs attached. It ends with neither Jedi or Sith.
I'm not as big a stars wars nut as Zeb, but I am on the same team. And I have read Shigo and am on a path with trees and didn't want to slow things down and go into definitions, no disrespect Guy. We all know its not good. Especially when spores are flying around, many of them virulent stem rots around here.
As a CA, is there somewhere where this is inferred: Never, ever, spur a tree unless you are in the process of removing it, no matter where you are?
Your hypothetical is quite a stretch anyway since pruning in advance of removal increases total budget, so it seems quite improbable for a tree owner who's budget-limited to pay you twice for the same tree.
How many young climbers have read A New Tree Biology?
[/ QUOTE ]
Not that much of a stretch, in fact, good business. I spend 10 minutes spurring up and banging off an immediate hazard, and guarantee to get the removal in the next 12 - 24 months when they've got funds. Believe it or not, there are some times we can predict when a tree will be dead, and sometimes your client can predict things too. I work with the trees and the people. I think my neighbourhood is more rural than yours and Zeb's, but certainly the trees are a bit different. But even still, you might SRT a quick branch to get the sale, in the right situation. I do that too, on trees that aren't dead or otherwise imminently dying. Anyway, this thread is way off topic. This is how its gone:
Can a company in the PNW regularly spur prune jobs in firs and be taken seriously? We all agree 'No'. Report them or something, protect yourself and your reputation.
Then we considered if it was ever OK to climb on spurs unless you were removing a tree, right then and there. Zeb says 'No'. He won't even use them for a rescue, but his rationale is based on him being very good with SRT. Its always, always, quicker, and safer.
There are others, who say that there are some times when you can spur a fir tree and rest easy as a professional, that its 'OK'. Might be this declining tree sceario I'm describing. Some of you really don't like that one. Might be a tree next to power, where throwing a line is dangerous. Just might be something out there that your Jedi powers can't handle. Of course, we're only talking about fir trees in the PNW. Not oaks, arbutus, maple, or anything in Illinois or wherever. Douglas fir, Grand fir, maybe some hemlock? You might have to 'tip-toe' up to a safe point and then take them off. Might be less damage than knocking off cool old deadwood with a line install. Maybe not. . I'm not saying all the time, I'm saying, you might see this around here. . . Or, you might have to SRT up, and when you're working on a top section that will eventually be totally removed, you might put them on. Your own tree that you are slowly going to pick away at? Is that torture? Chock a block second growth firehazard stands with trees described by the owners as 'standing firewood'? How about this one - accessing heron rookeries in huge old fir and cottonwood stands, where big colonies move from tree to tree as the trees decline from the impact. This pattern is documented. Throwlines scare the sh#t out of the birds and they'll stress out be off the eggs for too long. The data from the eggs is for the greater good, and the money is sweet, but if you miss on the first shot, its over, and its a tough one in uber-dense underbrush.. Never, never, ever? Come on.
Of course, its all about the balance, just like the Force. The Jedi were on the one side, with their fascination with the light sabre and meditation. . and the hacks in the dark side, with their spurs attached. It ends with neither Jedi or Sith.
I'm not as big a stars wars nut as Zeb, but I am on the same team. And I have read Shigo and am on a path with trees and didn't want to slow things down and go into definitions, no disrespect Guy. We all know its not good. Especially when spores are flying around, many of them virulent stem rots around here.
As a CA, is there somewhere where this is inferred: Never, ever, spur a tree unless you are in the process of removing it, no matter where you are?
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