Gaffing conifers while pruning

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I might add to the original question. What if you found out that a TCIA accredited company was spiking up trees while pruning?

[/ QUOTE ]That may be cause for a call to TCIA.

Or video the act and post it on youtube!
 
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I might add to the original question. What if you found out that a TCIA accredited company was spiking up trees while pruning?

[/ QUOTE ]That may be cause for a call to TCIA.

Or video the act and post it on youtube!

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Just what we need, a few more Ekkas around.
 
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eric frei is THE MAN! have you seen what happened recently with the door knockers?? the guys got fined over $10,000 for breaking fair trade laws. all thanks to mister eric frei aka EKKA.

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This can also be done without the personal distractions.

Gord, we do need more documenters and reporters around.

Or do you have a better solution
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I don't spike prunes at all, but I look at the work Gord does and see that there are times when deviation from best practice is warranted...windfirming on cutblocks etc. I agree with the others who say that there are situations aside from aerial rescue which justify using spikes on a retention tree. I feel this industry is plagued by dogmatic assumptions and often times we stagnate and get into disagreements because one party feels the need to assert its superiority over another.

Zeb, I agree that spiking residential prunes is generally poor practice, but as jeff-r points out, what if the tree is slated for removal, but the client doesn't have the budget for the removal at the time, but will pay for some hazard mitigation (hangar removal...etc)?

In your case it seems your competitor uses spikes on trees which they have no business spiking and gain a production advantage by it. This sux, and will only change by educating the customer...not by whistle blowing and lambasting them on the internet. Unless you can somehow manage to create a bylaw or law which prohibits spiking live trees...in the PNW...GOOD LUCK!

Trees are infinitely varied and the situations in which we as arborists find ourselves applying our trade can conflict with what we have been taught. There is no 'one size fits all' approach to tree care.

Consider topping, we all know its bad, but what is topping? It seems that one can make heading cuts back to a node, which looks very similar to topping, but it is not technically topping. So, a veteran tree which has been headed back to a node can to a greenhorn seem like a topped tree. He takes a vid, posts it on the internet calling the company responsible hacks and so on, and it turns out it was Guy Meilleur performing retrenchment? Where does it end?

So, perhaps there are situations in which spiking up a tree is acceptable? Consider thick barked trees like mature firs, or redwoods.

All I'm saying is that when you back yourself into a corner, you generally aren't seeing the whole picture.
 
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Zeb, I agree that spiking residential prunes is generally poor practice, but as jeff-r points out, what if the tree is slated for removal, but the client doesn't have the budget for the removal at the time, but will pay for some hazard mitigation (hangar removal...etc)?

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So it's OK to spur up then? Wow. Like Treewill said in this post waay back. I can't see why anyone would have any justification to climb a tree, thick barked or not, with gaffs.

And these thick barked trees? How many Douglas-fir trees in your area have bark thick enough that you will not reach the cambium with the spurs? Unless you are pruning Douglas-firs that are well over 100 years, you will not be finding bark thick enough to prevent the tips of the gaffs from reaching the wood.

Thick barked trees exception is just apologetic for the practice.

Dylan, I hear you when you are saying that you and your company don't gaff trees. But don't defend those that are not skilled enough to be in the business who represent themselves as competent.
 
Dylan,
Thank you for your thoughtful and well written post. I agree that making clear 'rules' for tree care is very problematic, and I think anyone who's done this type of work for any length of time understands that. I think about some post-ice storm work or habitat creation work I've done that I'm sure would look to some arborists like butchery. Knowing the story from beginning to end will usually change one's perspective, no?

That being said, I'm fairly sure that Zeb's case is a pretty cut and dry example of arborists using terrible work practices to increase production. This type of behavior is a black eye to our industry, and reflects poorly on all of us. I have NO problem with whistle blowers calling out companies that do this type of stuff. If you are running a TCIA accredited company this directly affects your business in a negative way.

Bottom line IMO is that although tree work requires a lot of flexibility and willingness to think outside the box, this should not stop us from calling out bad behavior when we see it, or pretending that spiking trees on a residential pruning job is a grey area. It's not.

Also, I do not consider spiking mature Firs or Redwoods to be acceptable AT ALL. Can I get some opinions on that from other PNW arborists?
 
treewill - I have tiptoed up a few (very) thick barked Firs. Mostly on view trim jobs where there is no limb for 60 feet. Cedars are a no-no... hard not to slide out and tear bark. Anyhow, I can see that in a few situations, a good climber can gaff real light and cause no damage. That being said - I also recongnize that a tree can always have a line set from ground... it is all a matter of economics, i.e bid.
p.s. - from a climber that has yet to go single line, the SRT folks sound like vegans sometimes...
 
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I have tiptoed up a few (very) thick barked Firs

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Gaffs are designed to push further into the tree as you put weight on them. If you are finding that you can tip toe up a tree you must be climbing on spurs that are either dull, or sharpened incorrectly.

Gaffs always cause damage. Period. And the marks are detracting from the natural beauty of the tree.
 
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What would you think of a company that represents as an Industry leader with all of the standard certifications and credentials that regularly had their climbers spur up conifers while pruning?

Big Deal or who cares?

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I'd like to reply to this original question, as I think it's worded well. Zeb I think it is a big problem if a company such as you describe is routinely gaffing prunes. If it's a regular practice then it's due to laziness and/or improper training and motivation from the management. In fact I have no problem in saying that it's a rare occasion that it is justified for a climber in a true urban environment to use gaffs on and tree that is not being removed. Some exceptions in an urban environment might be:

-an ivy (or other climbing plant) covered tree that prohibits setting a line from the ground.
-a dying tree that is being reduced or pruned for hazard mitigation.
-large trees in green areas that are surrounded by thick understory vegetation and/or on very steep ground that make setting a line from the ground exceedingly impractical.

Outside of true urban areas also needs different consideration in my opinion. Much of the work I do is far removed from true residential treework, but there are many jobs that are in a sort of gray area. For example, a few years ago we had a contract to create views for 35 lots on an island nearby. Each lot was 5 acres on mixed bluffy terrain. On average each view required the pruning or removal of 10-30 trees, most of which we crown raised. The access to many trees was up to 400 yards of walking over rough ground. Small firs and cedars many 10" DBH and 50' tall, mostly fluff for limbs. To climb spurless would easily triple the time of most of the work done, and the customer would never have agreed to it. So is it wrong to gaff these type of prunes? My opinion is no. If I quoted the same job in the back yard of a urban neighborhood? I'd pull the ladder off the truck and use it.
 
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Anyhow, I can see that in a few situations, a good climber can gaff real light and cause no damage.


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You actually believe that this causes no damage? I don't know how to respond to that. It is also worth pointing out that very thick barked firs are probably way older than your grandparents. Is that any way to treat them?

If SRT-climbing arborists sound shrill, perhaps it's because it seems so absurd and frustrating to us that anyone would continue to unnecessarily spike trees when there is a better way. Zeb's got it: those big conifers are made to be climbed SRT.

You say you climb with spikes when there is no limb for 60 feet? WHAT?!? Am I missing something? I have trouble taking any PNW arborist seriously who can't hit 60ft with a hand toss. What do you do with trees where the first limb (or first one you would climb on) is 85ft or more off the deck? I've climbed loads of forest trees SRT with no limb for 150-200ft, and I have trouble not laughing at the thought that no branches for 60ft is justification for some folks to bust out the gaffs. Jeez.
 
treewill - I think the situation I described (60ft) is much like Gord's description. Bad topography, etc. You asked for opinions from the PNW and I sent one, sorry it did not meet your standards. Jeez, go easy. Don't take anything too serious...
 
Let's get back to the original post. The company I was referring to advertizes that they are TCIA Accredited with Certified Arborists on staff.

I would say that most of the competition here is for tree removal by folks who have never heard of TCIA, ISA or TreeBuzz. Therefore, I for one, have marketed that we are different. Our company website looks very similar to the company the thread is about. And that really aggravates me. It affects perception of the industry and myself through the eyes of the customers I am trying to reach. If you say you are one thing and show up looking like all the rest, you should be called out by your peers, and that's what I hope happens.
 

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