Eye-and-Eye Splice Samson Ice

TreeLogic

TreeLogic

Branched out member
Location
Coastal SC
Hey everyone, new to the forum and trying to splice eye/eye hitch cords with Samson Ice.
Having trouble the final bury. The initial bury was hard enough. Seems it takes up so much space, the 2nd bury can't get by it to exit at the proper location. Also, will this be too stiff to use as a hitch cord?

Here's the instructions I'm using:

http://www.samsonrope.com/Documents/Spli...EPT2012_WEB.pdf

Thanks in advance - Will
 
If you're doing the crossover in the middle you might have caught the threads from the initial bury. Also are you using tubular fids or a wire fid or toss wand? Also with the crossover it will be stiff till you do the taper.
 
Using the i2i instructions on samson website, though I tried for something more like a 28" end result. Is that even possible?

Was definitely catching threads from the initial bury. Using a tubular fid. should I order a toss splice wand? If so, what's a good allround size to begin with?

Per the instructions, I had already performed the 1st taper, though it hadn't been pulled back in yet.
 
Try a wire coat hanger doubled in half, and some masking tape. Just reverse entry and exits for the buries, if that makes sense. Once you get it down it's cake walk.
 
Piano wire! you need 0.9>1.2mm

a coat hanger is too thick, don't bother with a wand.

If you really want to save money, strip the copper cable out of electrical wire, making sure its about 1mm>1.2mm copper.

The copper is soft, but strong, and as long as you do not treat it like steel and take it slow, its first class.
 
Appreciate all the ideas.

Tuttle...I got it to work with the coat hanger but I think I'll try the copper wire on my next try. My coat hanger was of the painted sort, and where it flaked off, it didn't slide through perfect. A lot better than the tubular fid though. hesanarborist...Tapers were made by cutting 3 sets of every other pair. Then trimmed the ends on an angle before the final milking.

Of course I won't climb on this one, but I noticed a small tumor at the crossover. Any ideas what caused this?

Oh yeah, will waxed whipping line work ok for the lock stitch?

Again, many thanks! - Will
 
The lumps are because the whole splice need to pulled out a bit and smoothed down, get a nice clean hammer and give it a bash, the crossover needs to be tight, but also smoothed back.

With copper wire, its very smooth and self lubricates, on a molecular level....just try simple things first, and try not to work it too much as it sometimes breaks, but once you master it - its the best solution for cost.
 
Treelogic, the other posters have good advice on technique, but being the spoiler that I am, I have to wonder why you are going to all the trouble. In particular, why the fancy tapered crossover?

Note that the Samson instructions you cite specifically mention Tenex (a type 1 fiber) and Ice Tail (type 2) as being suitable for the i2i. On the other hand, if you look up the instructions for a simple 12-strand eye splice, the instructions for Tenex and Ice are different. Why?

Also consider the application. You won't be towing tractors out of the mud with this thing; it is dedicated to a single use. Do you really need the 8000-lb. breaking strength? In a hitch-cord application each eye will only be supporting roughly half the climber's weight, say 100 lbs. or so, and even in an extremely bad but survivable fall this would only be maybe 1000 lbs. Each leg of each eye would carry roughly 500 lbs. in this scenario, which is like nothing.

I like Samson Ice a lot and have used it for my hitch cords for several years. I wanted to test it before I started making non-standard splices. I made a simple eye with no Brummel and no stitching and an extremely short bury of only 4 inches. To my enormous surprise the splice held fine until the rope itself broke at about 8000 lbs. Here is the answer to the question in the first paragraph: there is a LOT of friction in an Ice Tail splice, and it really should be lumped with the type 1 fibers. In fact I have tested 5/16-inch Tenex Tec (same diameter as Ice) and I am quite sure a 4-inch bury would never hold till the rope broke.

Your results may vary! But keep in mind that a locked Brummel is about like a bad knot--it won't slip but it will break at about 1/3 nominal rope strength if the tail isn't buried at all. In Ice Tail, a locked Brummel with a 4-inch bury would probably (as my test showed) give you full rope strength, but at the very least it would be worth close to 3000 lbs if the bury popped right out and did nothing!

The result is a very supple hitch cord because most of it is not stuffed with the buries. And of course it is really easy to make.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I like Samson Ice a lot and have used it for my hitch cords for several years. I wanted to test it before I started making non-standard splices. I made a simple eye with no Brummel and no stitching and an extremely short bury of only 4 inches. To my enormous surprise the splice held fine until the rope itself broke at about 8000 lbs.

Your results may vary! But keep in mind that a locked Brummel is about like a bad knot--it won't slip but it will break at about 1/3 nominal rope strength if the tail isn't buried at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

questions:

1) so moray, pick my eye size, insert tail at throat, bury 4", and dress? no taper, no stitch? hmmm...seems that would use less rope than two double fisherman loops. and definitely not the 80" needed for the 30" hitch cord with the brummels

2) so basically, the criss-cross of the brummel, cuts into a defined area of the line, whereas the bury hugs the entire length of the splice?

3) hanging my life here so no offense, moray - does everybody agree with this?
 
[ QUOTE ]
questions:

1) so moray, pick my eye size, insert tail at throat, bury 4", and dress? no taper, no stitch? hmmm...seems that would use less rope than two double fisherman loops. and definitely not the 80" needed for the 30" hitch cord with the brummels

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, no. That does not seem at all safe. Use a locked Brummel for each eye and then 4 in of bury with good stitching. Add another tapered inch to the bury if you like. This gives you a guaranteed minimum strength that is more than you need.

[ QUOTE ]

2) so basically, the criss-cross of the brummel, cuts into a defined area of the line, whereas the bury hugs the entire length of the splice?

3) hanging my life here so no offense, moray - does everybody agree with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just presenting some actual test results. I personally use i2i's without Brummels but with about 10 inches of bury and plenty of stitching, but I don't recommend than anyone else do so. I wouldn't do it either without testing. If you have the slightest doubt about something you have made, pull it with your truck or have it break tested with a machine.
 
No offense to Moray but I would not follow to his advise and I would stick to Sampsons I2I instructions. The reason they have the tapered cross over is to keep the diameter of the cordage consistant. The reason for the brummels rather then the straight bury is because they are bomb proof. My suggestion would be to buy some 3/8" tenex for practice (because it's cheaper then Ice but splices the same) and keep practicing until you get some samples broken by one of the suppliers (Knot and Rope) that offer that service.
 
Actually, it seems to be working fine up in the TTRRRREEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee SMACK! just kidding

I'm sure I misunderstood what moray was saying, though I got a little excited about it.

Anyway, why are there 2 different splicing instructions for ice?

When I come up with something pretty enough to use, I'll get it tested. Thanks for the advice.
 
I have buried my 12strands in allsorts of sizes for myself tested them etc. Never had any issues, will post a pic of my super shorty dyneema sling soon.

I Never bother whipping them, just doesn't need it, its only for show.

Apparently the army just brummel stuff and dont bother with a bury, when pulling tanks and stuff.

I have taken allsorts of military drop zone nets apart, they are not stitched but do have different types of buries, some as long as 14" on the jeep drop nets.
 
military drop zone nets with no stitching - i wonder if those are intended to be used just once. maybe they want things to move a little to absorb shock.
 
[ QUOTE ]
military drop zone nets with no stitching - i wonder if those are intended to be used just once. maybe they want things to move a little to absorb shock.

[/ QUOTE ]

the buries were not stitched, the squares had a little stitch tag.

they get used lots, and also in cargo places, they are around $1000 so you would want your monies worth.
 
when i'm lockstitching this splice:

1) should i try to go in between strands, or is it ok to just stitch through the middle?

2) on locking brummel, where to begin stitch? where exactly is the throat - below the locks, or just below the eye?

3) can i perform only a whiplock instead of stitch? do both? the stitching alone seems pretty easy to pull out

4) what is a blind stitch?

thanks,
will
 
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