Epicormic growth on trunks

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Useful to the tree.

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Do trees grow useless limbs?

I hope a few people will give their opinions on what a useful limb is. I'm not trying to derail and ask endless questions, I just think it's critical to give a definition at this point, a full and comprehensive definition.

Of course trees don't need humans, forests of Archaeopteris were present some 370 million years ago. Arborists are fairly recent I think.
 
I think a useful limb is any limb from which the tree derives benefits, long term or short. Some limbs outlive their usefulness, some become potential liabilities. Since the tree knows better than we do, we leave them alone unless someone asks us to do otherwise.
 
Good explanation, but I've seen codominant pines here with included unions, or codominant tops that developed well over 100-200 years ago. What's the time frame in which we determine long term benefit? From what I can identify as the tree's perspective, the purpose of the individual tree is to reach sexual maturity and reproduce for as long as possible. So, if the codominant pine leads break out after 100-200 years exposing the tree to decay and leading the tree to a spiral of decline, did that codominant, included union present a short or long term issue? It is later in the tree's life, but relative to human life it is several generations later. What if the tree can compartmentalize the decay and continue to successfully reproduce?

To your question, Glen, I don't believe trees grow useless limbs. But, as Chip pointed out, because trees are self-optimizing limbs become useless. If we think we are astute enough in our evaluation of epicormic growth patterns, and given the time and budget to train or restructure elements of the canopy, there are times I believe we can step in and choose which shoots to retain and which to remove.
 
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I think a useful limb is any limb from which the tree derives benefits, long term or short. Some limbs outlive their usefulness, some become potential liabilities. Since the tree knows better than we do, we leave them alone unless someone asks us to do otherwise.

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Blinky, I don't think the statement 'the tree knows better' is always applicable. I have seen many trees self destruct from poor structure that could have benefitted from structural pruning years earlier.

Trees can live longer with intervention.

-Tom
 
Which trees? Cultivars that have been manipulated to grow certain ways? Trees which have a genetic coding to grow a certain way in a forest which are then planted in an open setting in an urban area? Humans create the imperative to work on trees.
 
We part ways on that one Tom. Long life is a human desire, it's not a need but a want. Trees are supposed to die, right? Who are we to say how long they should live?

Trees do grow in disadvantageous ways that can be corrected but it's the natural way of things. We intervene for our own sake.

Maybe 'knows' better isn't the right way to put it. The idea is that trees don't need us to do things to them. We do those things because we choose to.
 
This is becoming a phiolsophical debate on the meaning of the word 'health,' I guess. A long lived healthy tree can sexually reproduce for longer than a shorter lived lived tree with 'natural' defects, so if 'success' is defined as 'performing their purpose longer,' then a healthy tree is better for it's species' continued existence. Survival of the fittest.

Human intervention in this world can be viewed as both 'natural' and 'unnatural.' The fact that we coexist with trees creates a need (for us) to manage them. They are vegetation, albeit very dignified, and our intervention can benefit them IMO.

-Tom
 
Yay!
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our intervention can benefit them IMO.

-Tom

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In an urban environment, I agree. In an undisturbed natural environment, I would argue its best to leave them alone. Should we be performing crown restorations on the forest too?

I believe the philosophy behind the science and relationship between people and trees is exactly what we are talking about here...not just tree health. I believe it is important to reanalyze this philosophy from time to time. Philosophy means love of wisdom/knowledge. I think we can all agree that we love to debate and learn more about trees.
 
[quote
I believe the philosophy behind the science and relationship between people and trees is exactly what we are talking about here...not just tree health. I believe it is important to reanalyze this philosophy from time to time. Philosophy means love of wisdom/knowledge. I think we can all agree that we love to debate and learn more about trees.

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X2 dylan climbs. When I started this thread, I thought I'd get some straightforward answers about managing epis on trees in an urban environment.

The discussion has gone elsewhere, and really got my wheels turning. Thanks everybody.

I guess this conversation just goes to show that treeworkers aren't necessarily the knuckledraggers that we appear to be...
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our intervention can benefit them IMO.

-Tom

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In an urban environment, I agree. In an undisturbed natural environment, I would argue its best to leave them alone. Should we be performing crown restorations on the forest too?

I believe the philosophy behind the science and relationship between people and trees is exactly what we are talking about here...not just tree health. I believe it is important to reanalyze this philosophy from time to time. Philosophy means love of wisdom/knowledge. I think we can all agree that we love to debate and learn more about trees.

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I just said can benefit them. I don't think I ever went down the should road LOL!

-Tom
 
The December Arborist News has related research on page 28-30. Good conclusions on sprout management. The authors unfortunately refer to all sprouts as "watersprouts", but their reasons and criteria for subordination and thinning seem very reasonable.

A letter in the Readers Forum p. 31 also addresses Glenn's question, fwiw. It also seems reasonable but I'm pretty biased. This issue is not online yet; don't know what the "issue" is hohoho.
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[ QUOTE ]
[quote
I believe the philosophy behind the science and relationship between people and trees is exactly what we are talking about here...not just tree health. I believe it is important to reanalyze this philosophy from time to time. Philosophy means love of wisdom/knowledge. I think we can all agree that we love to debate and learn more about trees.

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X2 dylan climbs. When I started this thread, I thought I'd get some straightforward answers about managing epis on trees in an urban environment.

The discussion has gone elsewhere, and really got my wheels turning. Thanks everybody.

I guess this conversation just goes to show that treeworkers aren't necessarily the knuckledraggers that we appear to be...
iq.gif


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This thread has pleased a lot of people not only in some specific details, but also in the natural and easy spread into other considerations. I stayed up writing last night when the thread was stuck in the same place for a long time, so I folded up the word processor thinking I could get back to it all the next day.

Starting up this morning, the thread showed a new flurry of activity and me being slightly out of place.

I want to remind us here that this thread is not about included bark. That item drifts in because we consider it a tree defect, in the same sense that epicormic growth is considered by some literature and commentators to be a tree problem. The opening question however in this series was:

"Is it good/bad/indifferent to remove these epicormic shoots? If so, what are the reasons?"

I intend to stick to that, but philosophical moistness is a good lubricant for any discussion and it also allows the authors to show that their knuckles aren't always in the dirt.

The best way to be a better writer might actually be to write as much as possible. Here we perhaps are friends, or at least colleagues--or somehow competitors, so testiness gets involved with testes. We'll work past it.

One of the basic problems of most forums is that posts are printed as they arrive, so while we're off typing, the thread shifts to another vector and we show up as an awkward commentator. This has been a good discussion in spite of some bobbles, so it ought to continue naturally. Keep writing.

Me, I'm going to try to get back up to speed and post another lumpy gaggle of wordiness.


speedobob
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These are not epicormics or on trunks, but they are adventitious growth from dormant buds at nodes. The end was reduced 1 year ago on this 5' dbh q alba, which has major buttrot (19 pound conk harvested) and so is made smaller. No intervention required; no inclusion, and every sprout (not water-) is headed into the great wide open, out in the sky so blue...a rebel with a very good (hormonal) cue.

"The best way to be a better writer might actually be to write as much as possible."

Yup, same as with climbing, or most everything. Thanks to Bob for in the dim past making me a better writer, by challenging points, so my explanations had to be refined.
 

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Back on topic; M grandiflora trunk sprouts 2 years after pruning was done above to clear the house. Again, no pruning needed--the tree even raised itself, as the lowest sprout died. This was north facing so response was slow. nOte again that the buds released at nodes, where we could with eyes and hands feel for bulges and lumps and other signs of nodes and guessed that's where the growth would come from.

Next pics on this will be next week, of a magnolia that sprouted wildly after being hacked, so restoration pruning was needed. Mags are dependable resprouters, even from internodal cuts. Restoration pruning is not that hard, if the tree is the guide.
 

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restoration pruning was needed... Restoration pruning is not that hard, if the tree is the guide.

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Lots of philosophical leaps of faith here, Guy! :)

-Tom
 
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