Dutchmans

Dutchman Usage

  • When needed

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • Not in felling

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • Never/Never

    Votes: 4 33.3%
  • Huh?

    Votes: 2 16.7%

  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .
Perhaps we need to define our terms.. When I think of a Dutchman, I think of intentionally cutting one side of the hinge with a kerf cut, so that the tree will pull to the other side after the face closes...

Just because Dent came to the conclusion that the cut was too unreliable to teach doesn't mean it's too unreliable to use... It all depends on the scenario. Maybe you were hit in the head one too many times to grasp that concept... might explain your anger issues as well

Gosh Daniel, how many opportunities have you had to 'experiment" with a dutchman while fucking around with a shrub in someones backyard?

After 40 years of working in the woods, I can tell you that I have used a dutchman more times than I can count. Much like many of my friends who make their livings as commercial timber fallers, I long ago came to the conclusion that the dutchman was far too unpredictable to use around valuable.

Nail your undercut. Nail your back cut. Use wedges, jacks, or tag-lines to get the weight of your wood into your undercut. Be patient and massage your hinge until you nail your lay. Its called sound mechanics, and its all thats really needed when valuable shit is on the line.

Head injuries and anger issues aside, we have ample pictorial and video evidence to support the idea that your skillset at the stump is seriously lacking Daniel, so please excuse me if I don't take you too seriously when it comes to such matters.
 
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I believe in sound mechanics too... So sound that I rarely need to massage the hinge...
..
Sadly you have left a wake of voluminous evidence to the contrary Daniel. Severely fucked-off under cuts, obliterated hinge, double-take backcuts, barber chairs, dull saws, smashed structures, trees gone sideways, pinched bars, severely undershot and overshot backcuts, ect, ect, ect. It’s all just a simple search, and a quick click away buddy, and certainly not my definition of sound mechanics.

You often refer to the “box” you think I operate in. I haven’t got a clue what your “box” looks like, but my personal “box” includes climbing or logging in California, Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico, Arkansas, Texas, Massachusetts, New Hampsire, and Maine. Along the way I somehow managed to keep my ego in check, my head down, work my ass off, and learned from anyone who was willing to teach me anything I deemed as useful. Its pretty obvious that I am just a meat and potatoes, nothing special, mediocre tree-man, but god damned if I don’t strive to learn and sharpen my skill set to this day. I cringe at the mere thought of life without the SRT goodies I have learned from some of the extremely talented and knowledgeable climbers here.

It is also quite obvious that you would greatly benefit from checking your ego and bloviating self at the door, and heading out west for a season to work with a real, genuine, world class, honest to goodness timber faller. Humbling and highly educational are words that come to mind.
 
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When sound mechanics won't get the job done, I look outside the box for creative solutions... Experimenting outside the box is the only way to break new ground... And you can only learn the limits of any technique by exceeding them.. Knowing how, when, and why to push the limits of what is possible is beyond the comfort zone of the 99%....

Bottomline is my tres make the lay when it counts...
 
Welcome to the 1% world of Daniel Murphy.

A world where shitty cutting skills somehow equate to breaking new ground, or a creative solution.
 
Anyone try multiple or several dutchman cuts a la accordion cut of the notch?
examples would include back leaner where the backcut is not accessible or compromised for wedging or cutting. My favorite technique in ensuring hinge wood does not fail.
Anyone try bore cutting parallel with the stem of tree with bar face perpendicular to the lay/ planking?
 
The cut you are referring to is known as a soft dutchman RopeShield. I believe Hot saws has some vids on youtube of the technique. I used similar methods back in the day with varying degrees of success, but again would never attempt it near valuables.
 
Step Dutchman from back leaner I found usage of Dutchman also perhaps safest Dutchman use in felling, if any.
Looking at CoG backlean to me means rotating CoG uphill to peak 12noon over hinge.
Usually this is on thinner hinge , as tree weight is not helping to force thicker hinge at first movement .
Then CoG to rotate forward to target , back downhill.
If tree to side in fore ground , step high on that side to push sideways as obstruction does also
AND OTHER SIDE OF FACE DOESN'T RESIST THESE PUSHES.
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Also, this is where I played some with double horizontal kerf bypassing flat facecut.
So that had freer travel at start to then get bolstered later when kerf closed.
>>mixed results , but think something there.
.
2005 hurricanes there was 2 hardwoods pitched over corner of a house a buddy inherited, and he said insurance was to pay for junky house as write off in devastated area. But wanted to try to save as much as could, but not to pay for crane etc. They were past 45 degrees each 1 pitched over the ripped out 1.
He said play with it. Most guys here if say can crush barn go ahead and have a good time! I always exercised what I could trick at no cost.
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They were wider than 36" bar each Slammed each closed hard on step Dutchman and missed house, ushering them were wanted to side and down clean.
Even I was wowed. I walked out to street to look back, and could see camera crews chasing tree guys chasing cranes at end of block. Sounded like auction house actually.
I remember thinking they just missed some good film!
>>But also knew if camera was running would a hit house somehow!
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Step Dutchman later in rotation allows speed to build to throw thru or bounce from face obstruction. Also closes generally later in rotation where more likely to shear clean as mechanical fuse rather than size/barber chair. Not saying to use in felling, just sorting, and how/why worked on carrying into tree at those lower loading ranges.
 
2005 hurricanes there was 2 hardwoods pitched over corner of a house a buddy inherited, and he said insurance was to pay for junky house as write off in devastated area. But wanted to try to save as much as could, but not to pay for crane etc. They were past 45 degrees each 1 pitched over the ripped out 1.
How far is a man really gonna get a 36" DBH tree leaning at 45 degrees to swing with nothing but a Dutchy? Really?
 
The problem with a dutchman is everyone tries using it on trees that wont swing haha thinking its some miracle cut. Its very specific to its purpose. Ive used it in the woods a million times and its awesome when you are strip falling and have a good lay goin. Hardwoods are a different ball game. Alot of dutch cuts in hardwood will break off whether you hold your wood correctly or not. Know your species! Haha
 
How far is a man really gonna get a 36" DBH tree leaning at 45 degrees to swing with nothing but a Dutchy? Really?

Don't be so sure of what can't be done....for one who proclaims to be open to learning, an eternal student, you seem to have made up your mind on what can't be done... While it sounds like a lot of tree to swing, he didn't say how far they swung, or what species.. Or exactly how he made the cut. Perhaps there is something to learn. I'd like to know more details...
 
How far is a man really gonna get a 36" DBH tree leaning at 45 degrees to swing with nothing but a Dutchy? Really?
.
Long time ago,hard pitched, mebbe not quite 45 on each but a harder lean than see grow usually...
.
Was an experiment, a challenge to self of well i write about this stuff,this should werk like others even at this angle...
Was a Step Dutchman, so allowed to gain some speed going where it wanted, then tricked it into using that speed to bounce harder to where i wanted it.
Must keep force moving to violently rebound off of step, the more force in,the more force out
>>thus raising power for risk and solution at same time, like greater voltage
Instead of truck pulling to side face, adding force to equation, used own already present tree weight and force.
>> this is where my stone skip imagery comes from for Step Dutchman.
.
1 side face closed over house at 'stop sign' of Dutch and force flow took open, available, path of least resistance to side as Tapered was pulling to in concert and step rebound thru to same. (so counting path of least resistance as a force, teasing raging force to it's offering)
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i ain't recommending it.
Had to really talk self into doing the 2nd one that was higher as light dimmed, but also more over the corner of house, i was 1/0 winner but 1/1 ain't shit especially at these risks
Studied it hard, called the shot, and got it in the right pocket also; 2 in a row.
Never hit another scenario like that.
Don't think would have done same.
Once again not recommending, just saying there is something to adding this 'pepper'; and mostly ID to guard against accidentally spilling into the mix, as power can be used for or against ya; it is definitely there lurking!
i certainly used this work flow more confidently in moving 30' horizontals sideways in tree of much smaller diameter.
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i see face, Dutch, Tapered etc. as mechanical/machine commands like a list of computer commands to be worked when push button to activate. Only nibbling away at backcut to remove support is what starts/empowers computer program to run thru it's steps. Tapered Hinge pull, close 1 side of face at so many degrees then other side at so many degrees etc.
Like wrote a computer 'script' and pushed play!
.
But is not play, and so don't usually mention this; in 1000's of posts over about 2 decades starting at ISA 'bulletin board service (BBS)' on 25 free Walmart dial-up hours a month dribbling data thru ads like was cold molasses, in 90's before we called this concept a forum. But i done it, and offer my foolish 1xExperiment not as a challenge nor recommendation, but a view to understanding.
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Mighta been 40, not 45 degrees,might have been '04; but i am sure the dance played out as i say, no need for exaggeration to make a point!
 
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Don't be so sure of what can't be done....for one who proclaims to be open to learning, an eternal student, you seem to have made up your mind on what can't be done... While it sounds like a lot of tree to swing, he didn't say how far they swung, or what species.. Or exactly how he made the cut. Perhaps there is something to learn. I'd like to know more details...
Funny, but I don't see the the word "CANT" in my post Daniel.

I do apologize for being so blunt Daniel, but these are some of your posted stumpies, so excuse me if Im having a hard time taking you seriously buddy. I for one will never forgive you for smashing little Jimmy's swing set!

tapered hinge small locst.webpirregular hinge.webp20181124_143313.webp
 
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.
Long time ago,hard pitched, mebbe not quite 45 on each but a harder lean than see grow usually...
.
Was an experiment, a challenge to self of well i write about this stuff,this should werk like others even at this angle...
Was a Step Dutchman, so allowed to gain some speed going where it wanted, then tricked it into using that speed to bounce harder to where i wanted it.
Must keep force moving to violently rebound off of step, the more force in,the more force out
>>thus raising power for risk and solution at same time, like greater voltage
Instead of truck pulling to side face, adding force to equation, used own already present tree weight and force.
>> this is where my stone skip imagery comes from for Step Dutchman.
.
1 side face closed over house at 'stop sign' of Dutch and force flow took open, available, path of least resistance to side as Tapered was pulling to in concert and step rebound thru to same. (so counting path of least resistance as a force, teasing raging force to it's offering)
.
i ain't recommending it.
Had to really talk self into doing the 2nd one that was higher as light dimmed, but also more over the corner of house, i was 1/0 winner but 1/1 ain't shit especially at these risks
Studied it hard, called the shot, and got it in the right pocket also; 2 in a row.
Never hit another scenario like that.
Don't think would have done same.
Once again not recommending, just saying there is something to adding this 'pepper'; and mostly ID to guard against accidentally spilling into the mix, as power can be used for or against ya; it is definitely there lurking!
i certainly used this work flow more confidently in moving 30' horizontals sideways in tree of much smaller diameter.
.
i see face, Dutch, Tapered etc. as mechanical/machine commands like a list of computer commands to be worked when push button to activate. Only nibbling away at backcut to remove support is what starts/empowers computer program to run thru it's steps. Tapered Hinge pull, close 1 side of face at so many degrees then other side at so many degrees etc.
Like wrote a computer 'script' and pushed play!
.
But is not play, and so don't usually mention this; in 1000's of posts over about 2 decades starting at ISA 'bulletin board service (BBS)' on 25 free Walmart dial-up hours a month dribbling data thru ads like was cold molasses, in 90's before we called this concept a forum. But i done it, and offer my foolish 1xExperiment not as a challenge nor recommendation, but a view to understanding.
.
Mighta been 40, not 45 degrees,might have been '04; but i am sure the dance played out as i say, no need for exaggeration to make a point!

What I don't see in this long winded, back sliding, story changing post is an answer to my question, so I will post it again.

I realize the numbers Might have been slightly exaggerated on your part, but how far did you get a 36" DBH tree leaning at 45 degrees to swing with nothing but a Dutchy?

Seems like a legit question that deserves a legit answer (under 100 words if possible).
 
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He just told you... It makes sense that the dutch might work with that much lean, even though it seems a bit counter intuitive.. it was actually the weight of all that front lean was able to trip the hinge while it had enough meat to give the dutchman enough hold to turn the tree...

stranger things have happened!!!
 

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