DON'T EVEN TRY IT!
- Thread starter Daniel
- Start date
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
And back to the Pat lacy video. Dent describes the ability of such cuts to swing the fall to the side of the holding wood (away from the side where the hinge has been removed) I used to use the same cut Pat showed when I had a short bar, which is also why Pat used it in his video. Occasionally, but far from mostly, the tree would swing to the holding wood side during the fall after the face closed. This is a very unreliable technique and quite hard to judge just how much the tree would swing. I believe this to be the reason Dent stopped recommending the swing dutchman. There were too many variables to understand to make the cut reliable enough to teach.
one of the variables is how wide the face is. when the face is open, by the time the face closes the tree is likely to have too much momentum to be moved off course
Are you really that slow?
I already explained in an earlier post that which should be clear from a careful look at Dent's Illustrations,
the yellow sections in Dent's diagram (which i highlighted) are the holding wood left after making a swing Dutchman. And again Dent emphasizes that how the cut is made is not important. The real issue is how much wood is cut out of the hinge, and how much is left in place and where. The yellow holding wood in Dent's diagram closely resembles the holding wood in the hinges of my photos. VERY CLOSELY!
They worked, and some worked remarkably well. That's why I showed them. That's why Dent writes about them. Dent's diagrams are far different than the OSHA website description and illustration, which is also called a swing dutchman. I'm with Dent. Ii do not call the OSHA illustration a swing Dutchman
It had been years between the time I originally read Dent's book and the time that I made these cuts. So I didn't remember that Dent had called them swing Dutchmen. I refered to them as tapered hinges because they are indeed tapered. So you could call the swing Dutchman a variation of the tapered hinge. Though the form and function of the hinges are completely independent of the name that they are given. So the hinges Rico is so critical of are exactly those hinges shown by Dent on pgs 110 and 111, no matter what anyone wants to call them.
And the locust photo you keep asking about is pretty obvious. That is a small spruce that made the lay in the lawn, and the locust laying on it, also in the open grass, obviously made the lay. I have already explained in depth how and why that cut was made. Go to the thread from which you grabbed those pics and read it. copy and paste that here.
one of the variables is how wide the face is. when the face is open, by the time the face closes the tree is likely to have too much momentum to be moved off course
Are you really that slow?
I already explained in an earlier post that which should be clear from a careful look at Dent's Illustrations,
the yellow sections in Dent's diagram (which i highlighted) are the holding wood left after making a swing Dutchman. And again Dent emphasizes that how the cut is made is not important. The real issue is how much wood is cut out of the hinge, and how much is left in place and where. The yellow holding wood in Dent's diagram closely resembles the holding wood in the hinges of my photos. VERY CLOSELY!
They worked, and some worked remarkably well. That's why I showed them. That's why Dent writes about them. Dent's diagrams are far different than the OSHA website description and illustration, which is also called a swing dutchman. I'm with Dent. Ii do not call the OSHA illustration a swing Dutchman
It had been years between the time I originally read Dent's book and the time that I made these cuts. So I didn't remember that Dent had called them swing Dutchmen. I refered to them as tapered hinges because they are indeed tapered. So you could call the swing Dutchman a variation of the tapered hinge. Though the form and function of the hinges are completely independent of the name that they are given. So the hinges Rico is so critical of are exactly those hinges shown by Dent on pgs 110 and 111, no matter what anyone wants to call them.
And the locust photo you keep asking about is pretty obvious. That is a small spruce that made the lay in the lawn, and the locust laying on it, also in the open grass, obviously made the lay. I have already explained in depth how and why that cut was made. Go to the thread from which you grabbed those pics and read it. copy and paste that here.
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The term Dutchman is pretty universally recognized in our industry as the bypass/kerf left with a mismatched undercut...It is this bypass/kerf/dutchman which makes a swinging dutchman function. Now you are claiming the rest of the world is wrong, and you are miraculously doing a swing dutchman without the dutchman part. Kinda like a quesadilla without the quesa. A hot fudge sunday without the ice cream and the hot fudge. Turkey dinner without the turkey.....A prostrate exam without the finger up you ass. A rectal exam without the rectum......It's can't be done.
You conflation of the terms swinging dutchman and a tapered hinge is laughable....
You conflation of the terms swinging dutchman and a tapered hinge is laughable....
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Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
Just read the book ... Dent is clear and so AM I.
It doesn't matter to me what you or 50 other people say here, or anywhere else. Dent is the original and definitive source on the matter. His writing and illustrations are clear.
ps.. its not a "swinging" Dutchman. it's a swing Dutchman. How much brain damage do you have?
It doesn't matter to me what you or 50 other people say here, or anywhere else. Dent is the original and definitive source on the matter. His writing and illustrations are clear.
ps.. its not a "swinging" Dutchman. it's a swing Dutchman. How much brain damage do you have?
Said the man who's cutting swinging dutchman without a dutchman......Kinda like a climber who doesn't climb, don't ya think?
RopeShield
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
RopeShield
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
I was told their tongue is wrap around their brain and they sense the vibrations from the tongue against the brain to determine where the grubs are.
All this nonsense and bickering to turn a tree.
to both of you. Just shut up and fn listen to each other and agree to disagree.
All this nonsense and bickering to turn a tree.
to both of you. Just shut up and fn listen to each other and agree to disagree.
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RopeShield
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
Woodpeckers: Miracle Birds Designed to Peck Wood « Creation Science Association of Alberta
An association of Christians from all over Alberta, active in the province for over thirty years.
This is about keeping a younger climber from watching Daniels "DON'T EVEN TRY IT" video then going out and doing stupid like making a slice cut on a vertical/near vertical top or log while aloft and either seriously injuring themselves or killing themselves.I was told their tongue is wrap around their brain and they sense the vibrations from the tongue against the brain to determine where the grubs are.
All this nonsense and bickering to turn a tree.
This is about Daniel constantly posting up pictures and videos of extremely subpar cutting and methods that can and will get folks hurt.
This is about letting younger climber understand that a swinging dutchman is an extremely unpredictable and unreliable cut that has virtually no place in residential tree-work. Its a cut best left for pro fallers working in the woods. We as climber have much better, safer, and consistence methods at our disposal to do our jobs without smashing HO's shit.
If you dont like the show you can always get up and change the fucking channel Rope....Grab a beer while your up buddy.
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evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
All this rings a bell for me, it was years ago with Chip aka Blinky, and a few others taking the gloves off. Maybe @tomdunlap or @Tony or any of the oldschool buzzers would remember. All of this culminated in a publication in a tongue and groove technique which was remotely tripped via a side pull.
This vid fits the time line
This vid fits the time line
evo
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- My Island, WA
Any one care to blow off the archives? And slap this shit back up? @timber
This smells like someone staking claim to some ole pile of poo
This smells like someone staking claim to some ole pile of poo
Tony
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Lancaster, PA
Yes, we have been down this road before. The key notch to which you refer is an excellent, predictable, professional method for snags as is the knee notch and a miss-match cut.
I simply have no patience to participate in this thread. A conversation with a lot of heat, but no light.
Tony
You're a salty old seasoned vet Tony so there is nothing here for you to learn from this inane conversation.... You already know all this, thus there is no "light" for you.
A young climber on the other hand might not understand the very real dangers of using a slice cut to take a vertical top, and the very serious beating that can happen if one doesn't fully understand the inevitable flight path that WILL happen when using a slice cut aloft.
A young cutter/climber on the other hand might not understand the highly unpredictable and unreliable nature of a swinging dutchman, and that if someone is silly enough to use a swinging dutchman in a residential setting there is a high likelihood of destroying someones valuables.
If nothing else the young climber/cutter has learned that you can't have a swinging dutchman without the dutchman.
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Tony
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Lancaster, PA
Rico,
You misunderstand me and I was not totally clear. In retrospect I should have replaced the word patience with time. Time spent typing here takes away from typing elsewhere! I am working a any number of articles, curriculums and other ”stuff” arboricultural related, not to mention my personal writing.
I applaud your well articulated efforts to refute the utter bullshit spouted in this post and many others. Your skill exceeds mine in this exposure of snake-oil chicanery, so please carry on!
There is much here to “learn”. I would just prefer it get revealed in a “here is what to do“ format, not the egotistical driven way it was put forth here. You are the master of pointing out and dispelling this ego, while maintaining a decorum of impactful, well earned knowledge.
My views on the techniques that I would employ in these situations are out there. To restate them in this thread, I feel, would be to have them buried. While I enjoy the treebuzz and see great value in it, it can become a time vampire for me.
I like to think I am far from a conceited know it all, despite my critics view points. At this time, I simply choose to focus my limited energy elsewhere.
And you sure as fuck don’t need my help generating the heat or light!
Tony
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
Aerial Friction in Top-Down Rigging Scenarios
tcimag.tcia.org
While I like you as a person Tony , your own words from this article pretty much sum up my perspective on your writing
"we were unable to draw any substantive conclusions due to our limited capabilities "
I always try to read your articles when I come across them and I honestly have yet to find one that really offers any significant practical information that I could use in the field.
Your boy scout mentality and keeping your teachings to the lowest common denominator creates a very limited scope to your contributions.
I know how to cut a straight hinge as does any other seasoned arborist. the stuff I try to show is the stuff outside the normal scope of work.
I like to explore and look for new techniques and variations and tease out as much information as I can from every observation.
But Hey keep trying.
Maybe you could write a 2000 word piece entitled "why I teach my coworkers to chalk the truck tires in the shop "
Aerial Friction in Top-Down Rigging Scenarios
Arborist technical rigging is often as simple as a rope, a branch union and a few trunk wraps, or it can grow to complex systems with multiple lines convergin
tcimag.tcia.org
While I like you as a person Tony , your own words from this article pretty much sum up my perspective on your writing
"we were unable to draw any substantive conclusions due to our limited capabilities "
I always try to read your articles when I come across them and I honestly have yet to find one that really offers any significant practical information that I could use in the field.
Your boy scout mentality and keeping your teachings to the lowest common denominator creates a very limited scope to your contributions.
I know how to cut a straight hinge as does any other seasoned arborist. the stuff I try to show is the stuff outside the normal scope of work.
I like to explore and look for new techniques and variations and tease out as much information as I can from every observation.
But Hey keep trying.
Maybe you could write a 2000 word piece entitled "why I teach my coworkers to chalk the truck tires in the shop "
http://tcimag.tcia.org/publication/?m=54984&i=637292&view=articleBrowser&article_id=3542313
So we learned that the aerial friction device added very little abrasion to the system. Good..
We also learned that under normal loading and normal load cycles heat was not a factor with the Ariel device, but heat could become a genuine issue under extremely heavy loads. Good and not so good depending on load...
Most importantly we learned that with the aeriel friction device the load hit the system harder, pullling the steam further forward, thus creating more movement. Deal breaker for me....
Good stuff Tony. It explains why I didn't care for the SafeBloc and choose to use blocks and XRings instead.
So we learned that the aerial friction device added very little abrasion to the system. Good..
We also learned that under normal loading and normal load cycles heat was not a factor with the Ariel device, but heat could become a genuine issue under extremely heavy loads. Good and not so good depending on load...
Most importantly we learned that with the aeriel friction device the load hit the system harder, pullling the steam further forward, thus creating more movement. Deal breaker for me....
Good stuff Tony. It explains why I didn't care for the SafeBloc and choose to use blocks and XRings instead.
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JayDeCoster
New member
- Location
- Hinesburg
Pretty low to attack someone who writes well thought out articles promoting safety and asking pertinent questions, then presents those findings without pretense or self-aggrandization. But hey, what do I know, I'm no YouTube celebrity.
Its times like these that a Dislike button would be useful...
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