deep root feed in the Spring or Fall

T

treejockey

Location
Kansas City
I was wondering if anyone has any proof or opinion on if it is better to root feed most trees in the fall or spring. If anyone has any studies they have seen please let me know.

Thanks, Rich
 
you can fertilize a plant but not feed it. a plant makes its food via photsynthesis. I know, I am nitpicking but a ver learned man told me that last year and I think it makes sense. :)
 
jockey. thats cool but, Mr Shigo is very particular about his wording on stuff like this. what we tell the consumers as pros, they take (sometimes) as gospel. We need to get our terminology straight before we can educate the homeowners. I have made a point of trying to check my words as I say them, even explain them if it seems necessary.

I bought a couple (more than that but who besides my wife is counting?) books this year. two real good ones in my eye are new tree biology and new tree biology dictionary. and the best 60 bucks I spent this year, getting in to a small group seminar with the good Doc Shigo, no hard facts in the speech but a ton of really interesting philosophy, for me anyways. very enlightening.
 
Les weaner(spelling) of stevens point did some research that will be in the journal in a couple weeks or months about the effects and amounts of N fertilizer to small and mature trees.I was at his seminar in Green bay Wi and it was a good talk he put on.Typically we did our fertilization at bud break to leaf expansion. We switched fertilizers and are putting down less N so we fert. year around.
 
Les has alot of good info on N. and fertilizers if you want any of his power points or journals on it let me know, and id be happy to get them to you.

Adam
 
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I was wondering if anyone has any proof or opinion on if it is better to root feed most trees in the fall or spring. If anyone has any studies they have seen please let me know.

Thanks, Rich

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I just dug out my notes and got some guff for you.

First of all deciduous trees are a little different to evergreens and climate plays a factor too.

Like where I live most trees are evergreens and winter is our dry period, so here you could fertilize year round, perhaps in the drier period use a soluable fertilizer.

Now in a more temperate type of climate with deciduous trees the notes suggest fertilizing in late spring and on 4 to 6 week intervals with a soluable fertilizer thru summer ... the idea being that there's not much rain in summer. The tree needs to build up it's reserves for the coming winter and spring.

And this is interesting. Check the soil, it's PH and if you can check other factors such as aeration, water, compaction ... fertilizing should be considered replenishment of a deficiency but try to find that deficiency.

Trees showing symptoms of stress should not be fertilized with high nitrogen fertilizers. When a tree is under stress stored reserves are low. When nitrogen is applied the tree uses it's stored energy to produce new shoots and leaves. The tree may look better in the short term but reserves have been depleted. Energy supply for production of new wood, bark and roots has been reduced ... so too has the sugars that the plant needs to fight off pathogens and insects. This is why stressed trees that appear to have had a flush of new growth after fertilizing fail to recover long term.

So, let the diciduos trees break out in bud and leaf ... fertilize as required in late spring. Try to do a soil or leaf analysis to see what the deficiency is ... it may be something specific. Also try to create it's own self sufficient eco system ... mulch etc.
 
I'll just rock the boat here. There is an entire science of soil microbiology that shows that the microscopic organisms found in a healthy soil (undisturbed forest soil, for example) are responsible for providing trees and other plants with the nutrients they need to thrive, not just survive. Fertilization provides only a few of these nutrients and it has been shown that a high percentage of them leach out of the soil before they can be utilized by the tree. Fertilization has also been shown to be harmful to the benefitial microbes in the soil. There is a very complex system at work in nature that we have destroyed.
Barry Draycott
 
Thanks guys for your input so far.
The situatation that I am specifically talking about is trees that are deciduous and are between five and seven years old.
I have approx, 17,000 trees 10K dicidiuos and 7K evergreen, and a total of 40,000 total trees and shrubs on the property that I work on.
Most of them planted too close together and too deep, but that is beside the point since I was not on the property till this year.
In the past the guys that were on the property just fertilized in the spring because someone told them too. I have always fert. In the fall with a slow release fert. The other prob with this property is that they have to have to absolutly keep green grass and absolutly keep green trees and yes the trees are in the grass with only small mulch rings and lots of irrigation.
The landscape architech was a OK designer, and a horrible horticulturist, almost all of the trees are growing together already it is really sad, but my collegues and I have to work with what we have.
Other than all those problems it is a great property to take care of.
 
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I'll just rock the boat here. There is a very complex system at work in nature that we have destroyed.
Barry Draycott

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I see that you have posted just one post on this board, 'Phasthound'. You have stated a fact which is so well known by the Arborist community that it is an essential, fundamental part of our (Arborist) training and philosophy. Sorta like telling a swimmer that he or she must hold their breath while swimming under water.

When I read posts on this board regarding the techniques and practices performed by my fellow Arborists, I try to always take note and read what my colleges have written and hope to learn from what they have written. When I read your post I thought to myself: " Now this is someone who surely knows what they are talking about".

You also posted this:
"There is an entire science of soil microbiology that shows that the microscopic organisms found in a healthy soil (undisturbed forest soil, for example) are responsible for providing trees and other plants with the nutrients they need to thrive, not just survive. Fertilization provides only a few of these nutrients and it has been shown that a high percentage of them leach out of the soil before they can be utilized by the tree".

Again, you are reiterating what is, in the Arborist community, an old and established fact. This concept, or science is, in the venacular of the old south, 'already plowed ground'.

My question to you, Sir, or Madam, as the case may be;
Do you have ANYTHING further or pertinent, or constructive, to contribute to the question asked by Rich when he sought the answer to the question:

"I was wondering if anyone has any proof or opinion on if it is better to root feed most trees in the fall or spring. If anyone has any studies they have seen please let me know".

Thanks, Rich

The reason I am asking you is, you are the only one who had the temerity to challange the accepted practice of fertilization of all plants in response to complaints of poor plant performance, so surely you must know SOMETHING which could help the rest of us improve the standard of our practice/profession...

-Frans, waiting for your reply, I.S.A. Certified Arborist WC-2236
 
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The situatation that I am specifically talking about is trees that are deciduous and are between five and seven years old.
I have approx, 17,000 trees 10K dicidiuos and 7K evergreen, and a total of 40,000 total trees and shrubs on the property that I work on.
Most of them planted too close together and too deep, but that is beside the point since I was not on the property till this year.
In the past the guys that were on the property just fertilized in the spring because someone told them too. I have always fert. In the fall with a slow release fert. The other prob with this property is that they have to have to absolutly keep green grass and absolutly keep green trees and yes the trees are in the grass with only small mulch rings and lots of irrigation.

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Slow release fertiliser, like our Osmacote, is a chemical fertilizer, not a natural, and as the chemical is released it's in a form ready to be taken up by the tree (and lawn). The problem with extensive use of these fertilizers is they can increase soil acidity and salinity and add very little humus to the soil.

You need to use some eco friendly stuff to, perhaps some lime to bring the PH back into range too. If smelly organic fertilizer is not desired then perhaps consider a soluable that can assist the rhizosphere and enable more mycorrhizal fungi to work with the tree roots.

I dont know what you have over there but here we use seaweed extract spray on stuff.

I would suggest you supplement the slow release with the above recommendation. Also, does the mower have a catcher or does it have one of those systems where it blasts the clippings back into the lawn? You'd be best off getting that organic matter back into the soil and a mulcher mower can help. You could also consider doing a bit of vertical fertilizing, similar to using a fork and stabbing the ground say 6" deep and getting some fert down them holes.
 
What seems to be the best IPM practice for me is to get a soil test.
From there you should be able to address the specific lack of whatever soil deficiency is present in the soil horizon.
Often I dont do a soil test but instead do what I call a 'shotgun' approach.
I mix into my soil injection rig tank a mixture of:
Norwegian sea kelp
Azomite rock powder
endo & ecto mycor.
yucca extract (a natural surfactant)
I add other products as needed.
and as a top dressing gypsum depending on the composition of the soil

But all this really depends on your location, the history of the planting site and a whole host of other factors which are really site dependant.
In your case a soil test whould be the best way to begin the process of dealing with your situation.
AND DONT FORGET MULCHING WITH WOOD CHIPS AND CORRECTING ANY WATERING ISSUES
Frans
 
Spring is when the plant outputs a lot of energy; fall is when it's storing energy in preparation for dormancy. If one shoots too much nitrogen into any plant too late in the season - especially evergreens - they'll use it, put on growth that can get frozen and die. IMHO, fertilizers should be used, but used with caution. In our area, nitrogen is not a limiting nutrient, so I don't tend to recommend high or sometimes any nitrogen in our mixture. I always recommend mycorrhizae and I always recommend in writing applying mulch.
Sounds like you may be best served by forgetting the fertilizing this year, try to raise/replant some of those younger trees. Because if they're planted too deeply, chances are they're planted with big wire baskets still attached, chances are fertilizing isn't going to be your biggest problem. Of course, it is job security.
r
 
I like to air spade around the trees to break compaction ,compost,slow release fert,micor or any nutrient the tree needs.removing the the topthird of the basket is the best ,sometimes removing the entire basket desturbs the ball.i like the mixture you have frans ,sounds like a good mix for my areas in last years drought.
 
Frans,

"You have stated a fact which is so well known by the Arborist community that it is an essential, fundamental part of our (Arborist) training and philosophy. Sorta like telling a swimmer that he or she must hold their breath while swimming under water."

That may be true on the west coast, but here in the east it's taking longer for this to catch on. Many tree companies continue to "treat trees" with N-P-K fertilizers.
Many have included various bio-stimulants and slow release N to their program and this is an improvement. However, very few do soil tests first, and even then, those tests tell little about what is really needed for a healthy soil.
As Shigo says, you cannot feed trees, but a critical 5% of their nutrients do come from the soil. Nature has developed an incredibly complex system to provide these nutrients through the soil in the amount and at the time trees need them. Think of the soil as the digestive system of trees, and we can feed the soil. Healthy soil contains 5% organic material and if we maintain that amount properly, many problems will be solved. This can and should be done throughout the year by adding such things as hydrolyzed fish, seaweed, humates, good compost and other goodies. The ratios change depending on the time of year.
Ask any fertilizer expert about what time of year is best and you will get a different answer. I attended an ISA meeting last year and a highly respected scientist said that summer was a good time and the only way to measure plant health was by the amount of N in the fertilizer.
I am not an expert and it took me 23 years in the field applying fertilizers and pesticides before I realized I was doing more harm than good. I do not have an ISA # because I’ve never taken the test.
And Frans, you may call me sir.
Barry Draycott
 
Dear Mr. Phasthound sir (Barry),
Your reply exactly defines the concept of sharing information in a positive and constructive manner. Thanks.
All too often on these web sites we get the one-time poster who throws out a negative (seeming) comment and then never follows up or contributes in any substantive manner.
My experiance with deep root feeding started with me becoming an ISA cert. arborist and then realizing that the only 'tree care practice' I was involved in was cutting branches off of trees and stuffing them into the chipper.
Now I try to pay alot of attention to the growing zone of the trees in my care and doing what I can to improve them.
I think it is completly reasonable to expect to be able to "improve" the growing zone of the trees in my care because they are almost all of them in tight urban areas in small planting areas (backyard trees).
Frans
 
Some things to keep in mind about soil;
A handful of healthy soil contains more diversity of life than the Amazon basin.
The top 4 inches of soil are a driving force for all life on this planet.
The use of fertilizers and pesticides during the last 60 years has destroyed a great portion of soil microbes.
The use of these materials is the equivalent of feeding ourselves by IV. It's the difference between surviving and thriving.
Healthy soil = healthy plants = healthy people.

Our profession needs to re-educate ourselves in order to improve rather than to destroy. We have an obligation to our children to use safe products. We also have an obligation to earn a decent and fair wage. In the past 5-10 years, new knowlege and products have made it possible to do both and show our clients great results.

I'll get off my soapbox now. :-)
Barry Draycott
 
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AND DONT FORGET MULCHING WITH WOOD CHIPS AND CORRECTING ANY WATERING ISSUES
Frans

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I think all too often it is an after thought, that people are preferring to look at the quick fix or silver bullet treatment instead of addressing the fundamental issues that would remove the need for any kind of treatment.

Still, it is hard to always think outside the box - or at least think back to that point when a customer walks out saying they want X or Y done to their tree. I like this discussion!
 
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