Damage Clauses for Driveways, Walkways, Lawns, etc.

[Brando CalPankian]

It's not the contractors fault if the client doesn't disclose critical information. The terms and conditions are to protect both parties.

We specify the level of cleanup, anticipated deviation from grade (maximum) prior to us fixing it (I believe it's 1/4" or 1/2"), the fact that driving equipment or walking repeatedly in grass will kill it if they don't water it, that the method for removal is clearly defined in the proposal (if the client wants the tree dropped on their driveway and I think it can hurt something it's their choice to choose the cheaper option), if there's undisclosed utilities or septic/drainage issues that are not apparent, and that they can/should reschedule if there's weather that can impact those decisions.

It's about empowering the customer to think of things that we might not be able to see, think about, or be privy to in a 15 minute sales visit.

That's literally what the a300 standard is about, and that is literally consulting arboriculture in a nutshell.

Get over yourself.

 

[Brando CalPankian]

And self propelled units cause just as much damage in the wrong hands. I've seen more damage from shitty operators and shitty companies using nice equipment than I have from qualified folks using what they've got.

 

[Brando CalPankian]

Having a good verbal disclaimer and great customers to go with the written contract is ideal.


Couple weeks ago, moving in to a job with 27 trees coming out. City culverts had rotted out causing a large sinkhole.
View attachment 102774
View attachment 102775

This is exactly why t&c exist. There's no way to know every single scenario. This puts it into each person's field as to the educated decision to make.

 

[Brando CalPankian]

One last rant for the night on the topic. The terms and conditions, plus very thorough proposals, have saved me from wicked and extractive clients many times this year. It can prevent the loss of intellectual property, protect you in the event they are knowingly setting you up to fail to try and get something for free, from trying to squeeze more out of a job that clearly wasn't scoped as such, and so much more. Nothing about it needs to be extractive or abusive, it should protect both parties and agree to arbitration/negotiation instead of telling the other party to fuck off unless they are just being a douche, which is what my T&C protects me from.

End rant

 

[Lumberjack]

If you're going to bust up my driveway and or sidewalk, damn right I am.

I'd rather support a tree company using self propelled lifts, etc., and take a little more time on the job than help a company using huge equipment that easily causes damage.

I suspect you've grown daft with your advanced experience.

The driveway had a void nearly 6' wide and 4' deep under their driveway from failed city infrastructure. If it hadn't dropped us, sooner than later a delivery truck or their vehicles would have fallen through revealing the same defect and likely causing considerable damage to a personal vehicle.

It wasn't our responsibility, but we gave up half a day of production using our equipment to help the city expedite the inspection and temporary repairs to get the driveway reopened. That pushed our 3 day job into 4 days, but got the situation resolved for the customer.


Maybe one day I can rise to your esteemed level to afford a self propelled lift so I can provide the customers with in house options to provide efficient tree removal services.



Perhaps a day will come when I could afford tens of thousands of dollars of a variety of mats to protect their property, should that best meet their needs. Hopefully all this comes to pass for me before time requires I resign myself to tilting at windmills.

 

[Reach]

This is exactly why t&c exist. There's no way to know every single scenario. This puts it into each person's field as to the educated decision to make.

We crunched the edge of a driveway with our 40 ton crane yesterday. Apparently there was a soft spot right under the one little spot on the corner of the driveway, and about 4 feet out into the yard. Nowhere else that we drove the crane did any damage, driveway, lawn, everything else was fine. That one spot, crane sunk 5 inches. We had a double layer of three-quarter inch plywood down, and as soon as we started sinking we pulled out and put oak cribbing blocks underneath of the plywood, and we still sunk 5 inches.

Obviously something old was buried under there, Customer didn't know about it, we had no idea either. The house was built in 1892. That is why we have a damage waiver in our contract. We are very good at not damaging properties, but in a case like that we simply can't help it.

 

[Reach]

I suspect you've grown daft with your advanced experience.

The driveway had a void nearly 6' wide and 4' deep under their driveway from failed city infrastructure. If it hadn't dropped us, sooner than later a delivery truck or their vehicles would have fallen through revealing the same defect and likely causing considerable damage to a personal vehicle.

It wasn't our responsibility, but we gave up half a day of production using our equipment to help the city expedite the inspection and temporary repairs to get the driveway reopened. That pushed our 3 day job into 4 days, but got the situation resolved for the customer.


Maybe one day I can rise to your esteemed level to afford a self propelled lift so I can provide the customers with in house options to provide efficient tree removal services.
View attachment 102777
View attachment 102778

Perhaps a day will come when I could afford tens of thousands of dollars of a variety of mats to protect their property, should that best meet their needs. Hopefully all this comes to pass for me before time requires I resign myself to tilting at windmills.
View attachment 102779

Now that is a creative use of mats! I can safely say I've never seen that set up before, but it looks like it must have worked. I like it. And I want one of those. If we didn't have to go so far with one all the time, I would consider it, but we would need a semi with a lowboy to haul it all over the county.

 

[Lumberjack]

...It's about empowering the customer to think of things that we might not be able to see, think about, or be privy to in a 15 minute sales visit...

Exactly... value engineering is also a huge part of our business model. Identify potential problems and possible solutions during the site visit. On that job we removed 27 trees totaling 230 yards of chips and 140klb of debris with the grapple truck in 3 days of work with a 3 man crew for a price that can't be beat. That was our 5th job in 14 months on that 2000' city street, putting us at 100 trees removed for 4 very happy customers.

We crunched the edge of a driveway with our 40 ton crane yesterday. Apparently there was a soft spot right under the one little spot on the corner of the driveway, and about 4 feet out into the yard. Nowhere else that we drove the crane did any damage, driveway, lawn, everything else was fine. That one spot, crane sunk 5 inches. We had a double layer of three-quarter inch plywood down, and as soon as we started sinking we pulled out and put oak cribbing blocks underneath of the plywood, and we still sunk 5 inches.

Obviously something old was buried under there, Customer didn't know about it, we had no idea either. The house was built in 1892. That is why we have a damage waiver in our contract. We are very good at not damaging properties, but in a case like that we simply can't help it.

Going back to value, repairing concrete usually isn't expensive compared to removing trees in bulk manually. Damage is also not something that happens often; this is the second job in 14 months that had poor concrete that egregiously broke. The other was a concrete pad on a playground, 1.5" thick where it broke. I offered to saw cut and remove the concrete (gratis) for the school so their on site concrete guys could repour, but they declined and took care of it. Two summers before was dry and we had our grapple truck on that same concrete with no issue.

Now that is a creative use of mats! I can safely say I've never seen that set up before, but it looks like it must have worked. I like it.

We had ~140 pieces of cribbing there, but I was happy to not use them when we could set bundles of mats quick and easy. The swamp mats were to build a ramp to get up the hill, my front outrigger beams wouldn't clear the slope change.

Scale:


Chains to control any reactive forces that were ill constrained. 4 legs of G70 3/8" chain= 26.4klb WLL. 48klb machine on a ~20* slope= ~17klb (30* slope would have been 24klb). AC lifting job.


3 leggin it:


Two houses down on another street from the sink hole job, last year (front outrigger).

And I want one of those. If we didn't have to go so far with one all the time, I would consider it, but we would need a semi with a lowboy to haul it all over the county.

79.5klb with both full of fuel . Most of our work is inside 20 miles, but we will go where the (local) paying work is. I don't want to chase storms/travel the country with it.

 

[TreeCo]

I suspect you've grown daft with your advanced experience.

The driveway had a void nearly 6' wide and 4' deep under their driveway from failed city infrastructure. If it hadn't dropped us, sooner than later a delivery truck or their vehicles would have fallen through revealing the same defect and likely causing considerable damage to a personal vehicle.

I won't hold your youth and inexperience against you. (See, there is no need for snide remarks)

It's plain to see that was not your fault. I can see it, you can see it, your insurance company can see it. Everyone can see it.


A not held liable clause in your contract changes nothing.

 

[ATH]

...

The driveway had a void nearly 6' wide and 4' deep under their driveway from failed city infrastructure. If it hadn't dropped us, sooner than later a delivery truck or their vehicles would have fallen through revealing the same defect and likely causing considerable damage to a personal vehicle.

It wasn't our responsibility, ......

So, now my question is: Whose responsibility was it? (city or homeowner???) And would you (or your insurance) seek restitution from that responsible party if there was damage to your equipment?

I'd be a little hesitant to offer assistance...not because I wouldn't want to, but I'd worry a lawyer would use that as evidence that we accepted responsibility for the damage.

 

[Brando CalPankian]

I won't hold your youth and inexperience against you. (See, there is no need for snide remarks)

It's plain to see that was not your fault. I can see it, you can see it, your insurance company can see it. Everyone can see it.


A not held liable clause in your contract changes nothing.

You're right, I was being crass. I apologize. I get sensitive about what I perceive as a fixed mindset, and I didn't give you much of a chance to explain more of your thinking.

 

[Reach]

Exactly... value engineering is also a huge part of our business model. Identify potential problems and possible solutions during the site visit. On that job we removed 27 trees totaling 230 yards of chips and 140klb of debris with the grapple truck in 3 days of work with a 3 man crew for a price that can't be beat. That was our 5th job in 14 months on that 2000' city street, putting us at 100 trees removed for 4 very happy customers.


Going back to value, repairing concrete usually isn't expensive compared to removing trees in bulk manually. Damage is also not something that happens often; this is the second job in 14 months that had poor concrete that egregiously broke. The other was a concrete pad on a playground, 1.5" thick where it broke. I offered to saw cut and remove the concrete (gratis) for the school so their on site concrete guys could repour, but they declined and took care of it. Two summers before was dry and we had our grapple truck on that same concrete with no issue.


We had ~140 pieces of cribbing there, but I was happy to not use them when we could set bundles of mats quick and easy. The swamp mats were to build a ramp to get up the hill, my front outrigger beams wouldn't clear the slope change.

Scale:
View attachment 102780

Chains to control any reactive forces that were ill constrained. 4 legs of G70 3/8" chain= 26.4klb WLL. 48klb machine on a ~20* slope= ~17klb (30* slope would have been 24klb). AC lifting job.
View attachment 102781

3 leggin it:
View attachment 102783

Two houses down on another street from the sink hole job, last year (front outrigger).
View attachment 102784



79.5klb with both full of fuel . Most of our work is inside 20 miles, but we will go where the (local) paying work is. I don't want to chase storms/travel the country with it.
View attachment 102782

Wow, you really do some amazing work! I might be slightly jealous. And that's a creative rig to haul that thing around, I'm not sure if I would want to pull a tag along trailer that heavy, but if it works for you, go for it!

 

[Gorman]

I suspect you've grown daft with your advanced experience.

The driveway had a void nearly 6' wide and 4' deep under their driveway from failed city infrastructure. If it hadn't dropped us, sooner than later a delivery truck or their vehicles would have fallen through revealing the same defect and likely causing considerable damage to a personal vehicle.

It wasn't our responsibility, but we gave up half a day of production using our equipment to help the city expedite the inspection and temporary repairs to get the driveway reopened. That pushed our 3 day job into 4 days, but got the situation resolved for the customer.


Maybe one day I can rise to your esteemed level to afford a self propelled lift so I can provide the customers with in house options to provide efficient tree removal services.
View attachment 102777
View attachment 102778

Perhaps a day will come when I could afford tens of thousands of dollars of a variety of mats to protect their property, should that best meet their needs. Hopefully all this comes to pass for me before time requires I resign myself to tilting at windmills.
View attachment 102779

goddamn that's a lot of mats

 

[Lumberjack]

So, now my question is: Whose responsibility was it? (city or homeowner???) And would you (or your insurance) seek restitution from that responsible party if there was damage to your equipment?

I'd be a little hesitant to offer assistance...not because I wouldn't want to, but I'd worry a lawyer would use that as evidence that we accepted responsibility for the damage.

Interesting question. I would file a claim on my insurance and presumably the insurance would seek subrogation. The homeowner's liability would likely be constrained by their lack of available knowledge of the city's defect, especially if the void is entirely on the city easement. The city's liability may be limited by a similar lack of knowledge, unless they could prove the city knew about the issue. As it stands, the culverts were annexed by the city in the 70s and they were not noted in the maps. It could be argued that the city has a responsibility to inspect infrastructure as a part of its maintenance obligations.

Our working under the direction of the city's agents doesn't constitute acceptance of responsibility on my part.

Wow, you really do some amazing work! I might be slightly jealous. And that's a creative rig to haul that thing around, I'm not sure if I would want to pull a tag along trailer that heavy, but if it works for you, go for it!

The main advantage I see to a drop deck semi would be 22.5" rubber offering longer life at the expense of the semi having much worse maneuverability in the typical places residential tree services operate. If I was servicing a regional work area or had a fleet of equipment being moved daily, that would likely change change the balance. With 60 miles being a long haul for us, it's not much of a concern. The 12 tires (17.5") on the trailer cost less than 3 months of insurance on the semi/detatch and should several last years.

The drop deck's lower center of gravity could lower my times getting through roundabouts.

goddamn that's a lot of mats

We bundle the 4x8 mats in groups of 30, so 120 of them in that picture, 12 or 13 swamp mats best I remember.

 

[climbingmonkey24]

Did an estimate yesterday where the only access is bringing our tracked lift through the garage into backyard. I noticed some cracks near the doors of the garage and on the ramp that goes from the rear door to the backyard.

I pointed these out and said that I couldn’t guarantee whether bringing the equipment over the area would make it worse or not, but that we could cover it with plywood for some extra matting. The client said more or less they aren’t concerned or don’t really care, I’m guessing it’s been like that for a while.

Still, I’m adding a clause to this particular estimate that we are not responsible for any further damage to these areas, that the customer has been made aware there is a risk that exhausting cracks could make it more susceptible, and they are signing off on it. Had there not been any cracks there already, I probably would not have added that in.

A lift is the only way the work can be performed. Their tall hedge trees, and an orchard ladder and extension trimmer wouldn’t get close. I guess the customer said they drove a tow behind lift back there before to do it themselves.

 

[Lumberjack]

…I guess the customer said they drove a tow behind lift back there before to do it themselves.

How did they get it back there?

 

[climbingmonkey24]

How did they get it back there?

Didn’t ask but I’m guessing through the garage, probably with a smaller vehicle. They currently have a boat parked on the ramp.