crane work shackles vs. straps

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T

TreeBailey

Location
atlanta ga
I'm having a difficult time convincing some of the old vets at my company about using amsteel stabilizers for crane work. Any thoughts or advice on how to sway them to a more modern and safe approach.
 
I'm an old school demo dog who prefers wire rope chokers for picking big wood almost exclusively.

The only times I mess with synthetics is to insulate the crane from picks in proximity to high power lines.

jomoco
 
What are you asking about? Using shackles on Amsteel or webbing straps? Or...changing out straps and using Amsteel slings?

Show them manufacturer's literature so they see the strength and durability.

Get pictures of them being used and accepted by other riggers.
 
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I'm having a difficult time convincing some of the old vets at my company about using amsteel stabilizers for crane work. Any thoughts or advice on how to sway them to a more modern and safe approach.

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What makes you think the OG's need to change what they are doing? IF they can set one dirty old steel choker, and have the pick sit there when cut, why on earth would they change what they are doing? I know where I'd tell you to go.
On the other hand if their picks go flipping and flopping then it's a worthy recommendation.
The "old vets" got to be old by doing some thing right! Maybe you should stop badgering them to use excess gear that they might not need. Do whatever you want on your job sites though, but if youre low man on the pole then try and learn from their experience.
I've had the same climber/ bucket operator on my crane all year(25 so not an old vet), he sets 1 choker most of the time. 90% of the time he has to tell me that the pick is free, I have to double check the computer to make sure and some times I plane don't believe him. So Thursday we tried balancers and after gettin flipping and rolling picks caught in a backyard com lines for the 4th time I saw the balancers get chucked out of the tree. Everything went smoothly after that.
It's not about the gear you use, it's about how you use it and the end result.
 
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The only times I mess with synthetics is to insulate the crane from picks in proximity to high power lines.

jomoco

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That sort of thinking is likely to lead to electrocution anyway. What is the dielectric rating of the slings? Are they clean?

You're fooling yourself and putting everyone at risk with this plan.

Oh sure...synthetics are likely to be 'less' conductive. But...how much? Are they insulated?
 
Tom's right, the best insulation from power lines is Feet or meters (depending on where you are from) and as many as you can get.

I spent 7+ years using 2 slings attached to the piece. rarely getting any balancing effect from them. Until someone showed me a spider leg. Now almost any pick with brush gets at least one spider leg somewhere and a main heavy sling on good would. So I guese to answer the questions... Show them, explain it and let them try it. Just remember that their system works too, and that there are pros and cons to both ways.
 
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Tom's right, the best insulation from power lines is Feet or meters (depending on where you are from) and as many as you can get.



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So do either you or Tom really think that CO's never work close enough to high power to warrant putting a synthetic link in their rigging?

Why not move this thread to the crane use forum where it belongs and let the experienced CO's chime in?

jomoco
 
Putting them in isn't this issue.

Can they be counted on as true protection? What is the dielectric rating of the slings? When were they tested?

J...this is your claim...start a new thread. Or...answer the questions.
 
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Putting them in isn't this issue.



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Isn't it?

Let's say the rules require 10 feet of distance between the load line and wires, and you're at 15 feet away?

Would a pro CO insist on a synthetic link just to be safer?

jomoco
 
synthetic slings have no insulating value period. are you ready to bet your life and everybody else's on the flawed idea that they will protect you?
 
I love this, a buncha crane rookies tryin to beard me in my own den!

Every pro CO who's worth their salt keeps a twenty foot rated nylon strap for exclusive use as an insulating link when working around power lines.

They keep them pristinely clean and dry in their own bags.

Come on and tell me more about professional crane takedowns yu buncha greenhorns!

jomoco
 
What's the fourth choice OSHA gives a CO working in proximity to energized lines guys?

http://www.cableworksusa.com/OSHA_1.htm

Ah yes, section 1926, use of load line insulating links!

Now as a matter of pure practicality a nylon strap does not pass muster in terms it's die-electric rating, period.

That said, a good clean dry rated nylon strap is an excellent alternative to no insulating link when even the slightest possibility of load line contact with an energized line is present.

Which CO is safer, the one who says, heck I'm outside the proximity limit by 5 feet, I'm not required to use a load line insulator?

Or the CO who says, I'm going to use an insulator anyway just to be safer?

The true pro takes all precautions possible in proximity to energized lines guys.

jomoco
 
AND...... lets talk about an insulating link since your 'professional' CO use their nylon straps...

To start reference ol wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulating_link a brief scan doesnt show nylon straps, but a funny looking thing on the end of the line.

Next our journey takes us to some manufacturers...
http://www.insulatus.com/
http://www.millerproducts.net/load_insulating_products.htm
http://www.hjhirtzer.com/

It would seem that a REAL knowledgable professional would realize that the quoted OSHA standards definition of an 'insulating link' likely isn't satisfied by a porous nylon sling that the operator keeps in a ziplock under his seat.

Also interesting the word 'nylon' doesnt even occur in the OSHA doc "Temporary Enforcement Policy for Proximity Alarm and Insulating Link Use with Cranes and Derricks in Construction"
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=28313

Worth noting is a Google search of the term Insulating Crane Link Nylon, http://www.google.com/search?client=safa...-8&oe=UTF-8 doesn't bring up one single reference, credible or otherwise, of ANYONE stupid enough to believe that a nylon sling can or will provide any protection against electricity.

BUT HELL WHAT DO I KNOW?
 
as a crane "rookie" adding my .02, after working with utilities on numerous sub-stations and distribution sites, utilities do not recognize insulating links as a barrier for transient voltage on any of the sites i have worked on. the only acceptable procedure they endorse is stand-off distance or lockout/tagout procedure. induced voltage can injure even without contact. fyi, osha is still evaluating test procedure for insulating links and has not set an approved standard as of yet. making statements not based in fact, and commenting about rookie comments does not impress anyone, even though you may be an expert crane removal specialist with extensive experience. i'm learning new stuff every day, and hope to continue by participating in this forum.
 
Let's simply look at nylon's insulating rating when dry Einstein?

http://www.wenzel.com/documents/insulation.htm

So you've got a wire rope load line whose electrical conductivity kills.

Then you've got a nice clean dry 20 foot rated nylon strap available for use as a precaution, lessening the likelihood of the load line becoming energized if an accident or mistake is made.

You're outside whichever 10, 15, or 20 foot limit applies to the lines you're working near.

Does the pro CO use the insulator to be safer?

Or go by the book saying f it, the rules don't require it, let's get to work?

jomoco
 
easy on the name calling. the pro crane op can use all the nylons he wants, it doesn't alter the fact that they have no rated insulating value. i'm sure you could climb in a tree with a pc. of hollow ski-tow rope, but as a pro you don't because you use rope and hardware that is rated by a recognized orginization for your own safety and the safety of others. why promote practicises that give others a false sense of safety? this forum is supposed to be a source of info, why give people false info?
 
So the CO that uses a 20 foot clean dry nylon rated strap when outside the proximity limit, as a precaution to lessen the chances of his load line becoming energized, is somehow promoting unsafe practices and giving false info?

Compared to what? A CO that doesn't use any insulator, makes a mistake, and fries?

Any certified CO's care to chime in here?

jomoco
 
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