crane work shackles vs. straps

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So if you compare the professional links that I posted with your out of context materials data you get what?

No one is debating that nylon might insulate against certain levels of electriciity.

Only that it is not an OSHA 'insulating link' and that your original chest pounding was nothing more than someone repeating a buzzword he heard and acting like you know what you are talking about. Kinda like a 4 year old.

Using a nylon strap is foolhardy and breeds false complacency. Although I doubt anyone is surprised at your attitude or air of superiority. Hopefully when your poor logic and education bite you in the no one else gets hurt.
 
Inferring that your technique of not using a load line insulation link when close to but not within proximity rule limits is what, safer?

The whole point I'm making here is that some insulating factor is far preferable and more responsible than none if things go wrong.

Making the fact that I use nylon strap load line insulation links anywhere remotely close to high power, a good indication of how serious both I and every CO I know take maximum safety around high power lines.

Your logic that no insulation factor around high power is better than some, in fact substantially more compared to wire rope, is laughable on its false premise!

So the CO that works with me is safer than the CO working with you!

Deal with it.

jomoco
 
So you defend your poor logic by acting like you weren't called out on it?

Your poor debating skills are highlighted by poor research skills. If you want to go toe to toe with me you might want to take some english classes.
 
I'm simply pointing out the laughability factor involved in your supposition that no load line insulator is better, or safer than that afforded by clean dry rated nylon webbing straps used as load line insulation rigging links, when working around high voltage lines.

It is quite comical.

jomoco
 
When J gets cranked up the best way to understand how the discussion will go is to have a really good understanding of what a 'straw man' argument is about.

Present a premise...get challenged...answer the challenge with a completely unrelated counter challenge and ignore the request to back up their original premise.

No one is saying that nylon isn't a better choice for adding a thin layer of protection when working around power lines. That is agreed...it would be hard for almost anyone to think that the most conductive synthetic strap would be even close to how conductive a cable sling would be.

The issue that is being challenged is what is proper and accepted by, first, the laws of physics...then, regulatory agencies.

Do you follow NASCAR? I barely do...but if I remember Dale Sr. would likely have survived his death-crash if he would have been wearing the, now required, horse-collar decelerator. Think of Yates Screamers attached to helmet/head. Dale Sr. was old school...and a damn good racer I understand. A friend of mine who follows racing said that Dale Sr. could see, smell and hear the air on the racetrack and new where to be. But...he still died...from something that likely could have been prevented.

Same here...don't think for a second that using synthetic slings gives you any insulating protection. What it might do is reduce conductivity. These concepts are separate and totally different. J seems to run them together though.

Here's a tidbit related to the discussion. The 2012 ANSI Z133 was ready to go to print last March. But, at the last minute someone who thought that they had invented a link that would have been an isolator made an appeal to be able to change the wording. In the end, this appeal has lead to many months of delay. His invention doesn't have credibility with any regulatory agency that deals with cranes...from all over the world. So, for now, there isn't one thing in the world that can be accepted as a 'fusible link' when using cranes.
 
mr. jamoco, you are entitled to your opinions and practicises, as am i. the beauty part of this situation is that neither one of us has to work with each other, or agree. that's what makes life great! thanks for the discourse.
 
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Here's a tidbit related to the discussion. The 2012 ANSI Z133 was ready to go to print last March. But, at the last minute someone who thought that they had invented a link that would have been an isolator made an appeal to be able to change the wording. In the end, this appeal has lead to many months of delay. His invention doesn't have credibility with any regulatory agency that deals with cranes...from all over the world. So, for now, there isn't one thing in the world that can be accepted as a 'fusible link' when using cranes.

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The USN has used them for decades Tom.


http://www.hjhirtzer.com/inslink1.html

http://www.millerpipeline.com/cmsdocuments/Working_Around_High-Voltage_Electricity1.pdf

jomoco
 
There are many insulators for cranes. The words fusable link makes me think of something that when overloaded blows but would let current through to a point....no good.

This is where the construction standards and tree industry standards have many differences. Unless you thouroughly understand both there is going to be confusion.

I dont see a problem with jomocos point of putting something in the system that is safer than something else. I own euro chainsaw pants thaT DONT meet usa standards. It is not required in the tree to where chainsaw protection. So does this mean I shouldnt wear the euro ones that are better than jeans? This is the point he is making. I would definately choose nylon over steel and even dirty nylon over steel.
 
The problem with Jomocos argument is that he is once again spewing bad science and poor logic as fact.

We have to understand that there are people that read these threads that dont have the experience claimed by some of our older posters. Jomoco likes to represent his beliefs as indisputable truth or best practices.

The MAD tables account for all sorts of variables, if you approach the threshold of violating these MADs instead of using a nylon sling that will likely not afford any protection you should instead re-evaluate what you are doing.

In most cases the appropriate response is to contact a utility forester, not follow the advice of so crazy nameless guy on treebuzz.

I dont believe that using a non-rated nylon sling as electric shock mitigation is appropriate at all, comparing the conductivity of nylon to steel is pointless, the crane, ball, cable, hook; the whole shebang is metal. In many cases high voltages can arc and jump beyond the distance of the sling anyway.

In any scenario where you are using nylon as an insulator you are effectively rolling the dice. It is easy to spew nonsense about how using one is better than not using one but if you are in a situation where the protection of an insulator is necessary, I assure, what you want is not some half measure full of hope.

Jomoco, I invite you take a second and evaluate the ramifications of the stuff techniques you illustrate to others and the effects they could have if something goes wrong. If you cant do that then just shut up.
 
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I'm an old school demo dog who prefers wire rope chokers for picking big wood almost exclusively.

The only times I mess with synthetics is to insulate the crane from picks in proximity to high power lines.

jomoco

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OK so Im not going to argue but this is his first response.

I totally agree with this and would do the same if I didnt already use all synthetic.

If you pick a limb that is near a conductor and are using a choke style of attatchment wouldnt it be better to use a nonconductive synthetic sling than a steel sling?

Even though the loadline is wire rope it is above the sling and limb thus giving you a greater distance to something conductive. If I were in a situation where the load line had to go past the wires I would use a longer non conductive sling.
 
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What's the fourth choice OSHA gives a CO working in proximity to energized lines guys?

http://www.cableworksusa.com/OSHA_1.htm

Ah yes, section 1926, use of load line insulating links!

Now as a matter of pure practicality a nylon strap does not pass muster in terms it's die-electric rating, period.

That said, a good clean dry rated nylon strap is an excellent alternative to no insulating link when even the slightest possibility of load line contact with an energized line is present.


jomoco

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Seems here he is saying a nylon strap isnt necessarily a sure bet for non conductive. I dont think it says use this and be safe. Good advice for newbies.
 
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The MAD tables account for all sorts of variables, if you approach the threshold of violating these MADs instead of using a nylon sling that will likely not afford any protection you should instead re-evaluate what you are doing.

In most cases the appropriate response is to contact a utility forester, not follow the advice of so crazy nameless guy on treebuzz.

I dont believe that using a non-rated nylon sling as electric shock mitigation is appropriate at all, comparing the conductivity of nylon to steel is pointless, the crane, ball, cable, hook; the whole shebang is metal. In many cases high voltages can arc and jump beyond the distance of the sling anyway.

In any scenario where you are using nylon as an insulator you are effectively rolling the dice. It is easy to spew nonsense about how using one is better than not using one but if you are in a situation where the protection of an insulator is necessary, I assure, what you want is not some half measure full of hope.


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He never said to use Nylon with in the MAD. All his examples were outside the MAD.
 
Why dos this type of thing always end up in a penis measuring competition? TreeBailey asked a strait forward question about the difference between the gear selection choices of some veterans and their younger counterparts. And within 4 replies we're fighting and chest beating. Must be a new record.
 
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