Clove hitch

Clove Hitch has been called the mother of all hitches; so i think it's main use/knowledge is for understanding other hitches and a quick tie; as MB says not for stuff over glass, screen enclosure, roofs, peoples or any place you certainly wouldn't want it to fail... Without backup lock the in 1 direction turns invites it to walk off the job; as well as the Standing Part pull actually pushing the 'cross bar' towards the free/Bitter end. If tempted to use a Clove; i go with a type of 'Snuggle'. If you can imagine a Constirctor as an extra tucked Clove; that Bitters ends up 'stabilized between the 2 Turns and trapped by the most immediate force of the Standing (properly)... This 'snuggle' you don't make the last tuck of the Clove, and finish like a Constrictor; with it's benefits, but less likely to have to fight or cut it off to re-lease. Like this Ground Line Hitch only the final tail/Bitters (upwards end) Goes over and then under to trap in the center and under the most immediate force of the Standing(properly). Really, really a wonderful example of good knotting theory IMLHO in true Baby Holding a Bus and stabilized trapping of the Bitters. 2 classical points in a secure knot; that aren't found in a Clove(sour-eye, i jest luv'dis chit!! and truly beleive this knot and it's theories should be in everyones men-tall toolbox, if not actually used...)

Actually i like mini-Dyneema slings and Foins on most everything; clipped to eye of line; or running on line; for multi purpose and speed of deploymeant, especially as you can preset them before line returns to you (in air); and less hassle for ground control; along with still maintaining knot in line as stopper if using pulley redirect especially.

propeller.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
His instructor told him that they are not allowed to use the clove hitch for rigging. This was 1 of the first knots I learnt and am very comfortable using it, and use it often. I was shocked to hear this, I think this is complete rubbish. Is there any truth to this?

[/ QUOTE ]
I suspect that what you mean to ask is whether there's truth to there being
some danger with the knot, and not whether someone prohibited its use.
Yes, there's some danger to the knot; and there are subtleties to its use
that are easier to deal with by forbidding its consideration than explaining
the subtleties.

Mark gives a key example:
[ QUOTE ]
Try this--tie a clove hitch on the ground on a smaller (6-14" diameter) tree. Then hold the standing part and walk around the tree against the clove hitch. The hitch will simply {un}ravel all the way to the end of the line.
But, if you tie a clove on that same tree and then pull in one single direction the clove will hold all day long.

In arborist rigging, it is recommeded to always backup a clove hitch with two half hitches because the piece can swing, spin, ...

[/ QUOTE ]
The Clove h. might be able to simulate that walk to untying on a fixed
object, but to do so requires it to break the friction of wrapping the object;
but where the object's free to rotate, it can induce the untying!

By coincidence, rockclimbers were recently debating the merits of the
"Clove H." too, but for them it's qua ring hitch, not a spar or pile
hitch as for arborists--distinctions based on relative object diameter.
(Much to my surprise, one tester reported Clove hitches holding to break
in modern, thin, HMPE tape slings--yeah, that slick stuff--on 'biners.
There have been mixed results with 10-11mm kernmantle dynamic and
low-elongation ropes, sometimes apparently depending on rapidity of
loading (fast = oops). YMMV--which isn't likely the thinking you do
your rigging with: can any "vary"ing!)

[ QUOTE ]
I learned it climbing ice. Put in a screw, clove hitch it right next to the ice with a runner, clip in and get moving. Clove hitches have held many a screaming fall.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this is clearly NOT the knot at issue in the thread, for most of the
replies; rather, it's a knot that couldn't untie, as both ends are loaded
--which IS similar to the knot shown above with the Cowboy Bowline
following it.

[ QUOTE ]
...back it up with a half hitch
... back it up with a couple of half hitches
... with two half-hitches (sometimes called a double clove hitch),
[please, no: let's kill THAT misnomer--bad grammar for "double" ]
... back it up with ...

[/ QUOTE ]
No one's suggesting a stopper knot? --a Slip-knot, e.g., or Ashley's
stopper? I think this might be surer than Cloving the end to the main line.
Give it a shake. Or put on a THIRD hitch (might not be in the pretty pictures
knot books, but don't take them seriously).

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time , yes. But when you are cutting a very large horizontal limb that has the possibility of splitting before you cut it, a clove hitch backed with two half-hitches is appropriate because the splitting branch cannot open it up.

[/ QUOTE ]
You might try this, in this case: make a Mistaken Constrictor w/Slip-knot.
--my moniker, but a Clove tied off with a Simple knot (shoelacer) is what
one knots author interpreted the oldest presentation (verbal) of the C. to
be; and after a good chuckle at that gooph, one can realize that in fact
it IS a decent binder, in its own right. So, pull the ends of the Clove to
snug it, then make the easy Simple knot, and stopper the end up to that
with a Slip-knot. On the drop, loading will capsize the Simple knot into
a Half-hitch (the SPart will straighten, and all twisting will be put into
the end), which is stopped slipping by the stopper knot. You buy better
splitting protection with a better binder, and have a sure hitch
to boot.

----------

Hey, mooooooooove over, dear Clover: I eat Clover for breakfast
--what happened to the Cow With a Better Half ?! That "better half"
can be improved to the Best half by its nipping one side of the Cow,
btw.

Or some improved Timber hitch?

*knudeNoggin*
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That "better half"
can be improved to the Best half by its nipping one side of the Cow,
btw.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nipping????

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. In this so-called "Cow w/Better Half", the end is brought out of
the collar and immediately turned to run along it around the SPart to
form its Half-hitch (nipping only the SPart). In the "... Best Half", include
the far/SPart's side of the U-part/collar in this half-hitching turn of the
end (finishing in the same place, i.e. above/outside of the collar, i.e.
away from the object hitched). This gives the HH turn 1 more (= 2)
diameter to bend around (so more readily gripped/nipped by stiff
rope), and stabilizes the HHitch, keeping it at the collar. (In theory,
the (mere) "Better Half" could be drawn under the collar towards the
object.)

(-;
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Clove hitch. America's number one hitch for attaching logs to ropes. If you don't use clove hitch, then @#% you"

- Ricky Bobby

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tie a clove hitch right now... I got a cougar on me!

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, if you can't tie a clove hitch with a cougar on your back, then you can't tie a clove hitch.



For me, if it ain't a running bowline (maybe with a marl) then its a clove hitch with two halves.
 
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time , yes. But when you are cutting a very large horizontal limb that has the possibility of splitting before you cut it, a clove hitch backed with two half-hitches is appropriate because the splitting branch cannot open it up.

[/ QUOTE ]
You might try this, in this case: make a Mistaken Constrictor w/Slip-knot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a picture?
 
Can't beat using a slippery clove for throw bags. Thats about the only time i ever tie one, except when sending up something mid-line. The clove also works well for spiderlegs and for those into bondage
 
[ QUOTE ]
[...] The clove also works well for spiderlegs and for those into bondage

[/ QUOTE ]

The clove hitch has limited use in bondage... it's a whole different discipline... so to speak, using doubled cord and lots of round turns and square knots... you're too young for that stuff yet boy.
 
Nipping is an olde term you'll find in ABoK and such for locking down the Bitters; with whatever force is still residing from the SPart (o geez, now he's got me doing it) initiating pull. This is all for security; ultimate security taking the rawest, most immediate force of the SPart; and placing it directly on the Bitters; after enough force int he Bitters has been reduced by turns etc.

For a throw bag i prefer a Slipped Anchor; and a Clara is nice too. But, i don't think you can beat the sweet simplicity of a Round Turn sitting on a bight of the Slipped Anchor. If i remember right, JP claims to make it opposite of me (actually i stole it from him and maid it backwierds, must be lysdexic that way) and seat ti well enough to use, but then can release it from the throw bag if stuck in air. i haven't got mine stuck bad enough where i couldn't impact it out by falling backwards holding a krab with throw line wrapped around it in quiet a few years.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
... a clove hitch backed with two half-hitches is appropriate because the splitting branch cannot open it up.

[/ QUOTE ]
You might try this, in this case: make a Mistaken Constrictor w/Slip-knot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have a picture?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, but shouldn't need it. --really, these are quite simple structures.
Oh, wait, the source for this "mistake" is on-line, and DOES ... !
--to wit: Fig.37 Gunner's Knot (which was taken from "Tom Bowling's"
<u>Book on Knots</u> which had NO IMAGE &amp; just words
[ QUOTE ]
The Gunner's knot (of which we do not give a diagram) only differs
from the buildeer's knot [=Clove h.], by the ends of the cord being
simply knotted before being brought from under the loop which
crosses them." [1866]

In good (typical) knots-dum copying w/o comprehension, Verrill accidentally
introduced another knot with his image and half-understanding, verbally
put [ QUOTE ]
The Clove hitch with ends knotted becomes the "Gunners' Knot' (Fig. 37). [1917]

www.gutenberg.org/files/13510/13510-h/images/fig37.gif
fig37.gif


[full book is at www.gutenberg.org/files/13510/13510-h/13510-h.htm ]


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Make the Clove.
Tie off the ends (long &amp; short) as though starting to tie shoes (a "Simple
knot" 'tis sometimes called); which, in consideration of the cross part of
the Clove h., l00ks like a Square knot (or Granny if you cross it the other
way--prefer Square) and locks pretty well against this cross part.
Now, the Slip-knot or more easily just an Overhand stopper in the
(short) end gives sure protection against it coming untied upon the
drop-loading (which upon jerking the long end ("SPart") taut will
convert the other end out of the Simple knot orientation into a
Half-hitch around the SPart).

---------
I came to realize that many of the oddly half-hitched attachments I've seen
of commercial-fishing structures are got by the process of tying &amp; capsizing
Simple knots--the back &amp; forth of either end and haphazard results of which
is straightened when tightened, leads to peculiar-seeming knots where the
SPart itself might have a Half-hitch in it (with 2 others in the end), and where
the adjacent such hitches variously form Clove or Cow h. orientations.
It's quick, it seems to work adequately, and so it's done.

*kN*

ps: Dang, Eye'd hoped weed Finnish beefour TreeSpyder utterly bemuddled
the soup mit babies &amp; "bitters" und maid us GooglEyed.
crazy.gif
 
Now i kinda think and perform that 2 half hitches are kinda sufficient stopper and beyond; with having less creep to said stopper. Also, most definitely; placing any tail under the maximum pinch point and force is pretty dang good, and added halfases can due that...




[ QUOTE ]

ps: Dang, Eye'd hoped weed Finnish beefour TreeSpyder utterly bemuddled
the soup mit babies &amp; "bitters" und maid us GooglEyed.
crazy.gif


[/ QUOTE ]


OOOOOOOOoooooooooooo S'Part &amp; S'Putter it's on (k)now brudder!
propeller.gif


PS "Google(.Com) is your friend" is one of my favorite mantras!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Now i kinda think and perform that 2 half hitches are kinda sufficient stopper and beyond; with having less creep to said stopper. Also, most definitely; placing any tail under the maximum pinch point and force is pretty dang good, and added halfases can due that...

[/ QUOTE ]

Two Half-hitches (rather, *A* Half-hitch) requires flexible rope, and can
loosen. Stopping the end from feeding back through the HH with a stopper
thus can work better.
As for placing the tail in the maximum pinch point,
Mahk's note about the potential for object rotation casts aspersions on
such a tactic, besides that point being located remote to the rest of the
knotting entanglement.
(Spydey, is that how you get up the tree quickly? --someone pinches your tail?)

(You know, several years ago, Nick reported the astonishing event of
dropping a piece tied with a Timber Hitch and having it fall largely devoid
of said attachment, with fortunate but highly puzzling results: it occurs
to me now to wonder if perhaps some rotation of the bound piece enabled
the hitch to loose nip and spill?)

*knudeNoggin*
 
The stiffness factor for the line device fighting aginst seating and keeping a half is fair. Just not generally what we think about in our uses of line flexibility and diameter until we get into really static lines or working small into using some stiffer throw lines for binding etc. Especially in quick drop snatch to seat, versus careful slowly built up and carefully aligned pull to seat.

Rotations to unseat same can happen too, especially in slick materials; but also if the hitch point pulls at/near the CG; in a free loading load/mount. Whereby, a 'stocky' wider than long, short load piece; is more problematic to keep captured in that the CG doesn't pull the lock closed the same as a long piece with CG away from hitch point, allows spinning etc. Now if the pull is from the CG it would then be a perpendicular line to mount, but pulled inline at first by us, in a drop etc. When ABoK speaks of a perpendicular pull being better/ easier to seat and keep; i believe it is to a solid, locked rail; so our use is problematic without breaking this rule. The inline pull seems to work better for the drop and capture of a free line running spar/not locked rail; especially when the CG as the locking force is farther from the hitch point(s). And, i still go with that in inline, there should be a preceding half/marl to give more inline capture (and dual capture) to the lacing on the spar, and that these both should be away from the CG to pull closed properly. Seating a hitch on a spar as an anchoring rail, or slow pull to seat on a load is different than the explanations of a drop and snatch in varied textured materials, and pull points on or far(thus inline or perpendicular) from the load's CG as the locking force employed for the lacing.

The ol'doc has really, really put it in there very firmly; that my wings must be permanently clipped.
crazy.gif
 
I know the clove hitch was the go to knot for a long time and I think it still is ecspecially as a mid line knot. But I'm a new climber to and the reason the instructors are giving is in a controled test the clove would fail more often tan a stillson (cow hitch with 2 half hitches). So the stillson is me go to knot but mid line say for a bouquet clove works the smoothest. The clove does have its place if you're worried about a split, barber chair or something like that a stillson will spread from the inside VERY easy so the clove is the way to go. But for butt tying or heavy pieces the stillson holds cinchs down even on smooth bark, but is easy to untie. Hope this helps.
 
i completely agree with KentuckySawyer , running bowline or clove hitch, if properly dressed and set with a backup knot, there is no problem there. quick and always reliable!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom