busted gin

treebing

treebing

Been here much more than a while
Location
Detroit, Mi.
At about three oclock a few days ago my old boss gave me a call and told me that his climber had just broken his gin resulting in a broken leg. He had been able to get down okay but the branch was still precariously lodged in a crotch.

I went out there and was able to clean up the tree. a large white Oak.

The climber had set his block out on a branch and was attempting to lower a large sized limb over the garage. The limb snapped crashing down on the climber and sending him flying. If the branch had not snagged in the crotch it would have creamed the garage. The branch being lowered had swung clean of the garage before the branch broke.

the whole thing could have been avoided by using a simple redirect. I told my old boss that and he said, "oh, that is why you were always setting pulleys all over the tree, I always thought you were just killing time."

It also made me sad to see that the climber had been wearing spurs in an oak trim.

My old boss was distressed enough already, I did not call him out on this point. He didn't need me to tell him that it was wrong. But It made me realize that a small tree company is under a lot of pressures. After I left, he was unable to find anyone who can climb with out spurs and I guess set rigging redirects.

He has never been a climber himself, simply a operator and a very effective job site coordinator. He is a certified arborist and knows what is wrong and right but is totally limited but the type of climber he can find.

needless to say the leg looks like it will heal fine in time and lessons were learned. Although, that climber will probably never take off his spurs.
 
Your old boss was lucky you helped out. Sorry to hear about the other climbers injury.

It is sad to hear of yet another non climbing ISA Certified Arborist hack selling poor quality tree work. If the Certified arborist knew how to climb he could teach his help. In this respect the ISA is doing a dis-service to the tree care industry by giving the title of Certifed Arborist to people who often don't know the first thing about climbing yet sell tree care that requires climbing.

Dan
 
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In this respect the ISA is doing a dis-service to the tree care industry by giving the title of Certifed Arborist to people who often don't know the first thing about climbing yet sell tree care that requires climbing.

Dan

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I agree with Dan. Credentials can be decieving.
 
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"oh, that is why you were always setting pulleys all over the tree, I always thought you were just killing time."

It also made me sad to see that the climber had been wearing spurs in an oak trim.

After I left, he was unable to find anyone who can climb with out spurs and I guess set rigging redirects.

He has never been a climber himself, simply a operator and a very effective job site coordinator. He is a certified arborist and knows what is wrong and right but is totally limited but the type of climber he can find.


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I've harped on about this before but how the hell can you call yourself an arborist when you don't have the skills. Frankly that ISA certification isn't worth the paper it is written on, an illusion of the greatest proportions.

Getting an ISA arborist is a lucky dip, cross your fingers, you may be hiring one of those certified can't climb, can't rig, cant cut and turn a blind eye to incompetance arborists.

For a nation as large and great as USA your education in this area stinks. No prac skills, no felling skills, no chainsaw skills, no rigging skills, no climbing skills ... hell what do they test you on ... spelling and presidents of the USA?

Really, just about every thing an arborist would do wasn't done and it led to an injury ... incompetance, period.

The the thing is your boss is limited by his own ignorance and the reluctance to become knowledgable and competant ... he has to accept the responsibility of knowing, and the harder it is to find good people the more determined he should be in knowing and learning so that when he's groundying he can confidently supervise correct techniques.

Back to school for that boss and would hurt him to get up a tree!
 
I have been eyeing a dead pine (about 20 in. dbh and leaning toward the house about 30 feet away...10 feet from fence)in my neighbor's yard (widow lady across the street) and walked out one AM to go talk to her about it...I was going to offer to take it down for her. A tree crew was there getting set up to remove the tree so I just hung around for the fun (timing, huh?)

I had planned to TIP into 2 adjacent pines and top it, then cut manageable pieces as I came down. Probably would have taken me at least half a day...realistically for me, MOST of the day.

The pros spiked up large nearby gum (hated to see that) and set a belay line in top of the gum, thru a big crotch and down to the groundies. The climber also sent the belay line and a pull line over to the target tree. The groundies took wraps around the base of the gum and the pull line was directed to a winch on a truck.

They pulled the tree back upright (had about a 20 degree lean) and then past vertical another 5-10 degrees. Then their most experienced guy went and notched (humboldt) and backcut the tree...it took several trips on the back cut...cut, tighten the winch, go back and cut some more.

He did put on a helmet for that part of it...no eyes or chainsaw pants. The climber didn't use a helmet ever, at all.

The tree finally broke free of the stump and broke into 3 pieces. It failed where they had the running bowline tied on. Piece one fell in a good zone. Piece 2 luckily snagged onto piece 3 and they managed to lower those without incident.

The groundies (2 Mexican helpers; one was his climber) were in the "safe" shadow of the gum. When the tree broke loose, it was the gum that was their protection...not where I would have wanted to be.

The "pros" got it done in about 1.5 hours...it was a $500 tree. But they spiked a good tree needlessly. And they did her a "favor" by pulling a broken limb out of a dogwood. I had planned to do that, too. I would have roped it and pulled it up into a nearby poplar then lowered it...not big, maybe 12 feet limb. The pro said he was going to snatch it out for her as a favor. I asked him if that wouldn't break the top out of the dogwood and he just kind of mumbled.

I left for work. When I checked it later that day, the dogwood top was broken. Pros.
 
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I've harped on about this before but how the hell can you call yourself an arborist when you don't have the skills. Frankly that ISA certification isn't worth the paper it is written on, an illusion of the greatest proportions.

Getting an ISA arborist is a lucky dip, cross your fingers, you may be hiring one of those certified can't climb, can't rig, cant cut and turn a blind eye to incompetance arborists.

For a nation as large and great as USA your education in this area stinks. No prac skills, no felling skills, no chainsaw skills, no rigging skills, no climbing skills ... hell what do they test you on ... spelling and presidents of the USA?



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There is more to arboriculture than tree climbing and pruning. Many people are afraid of heights and don't care to climb. Does this mean they can no longer be considered an arborist? Pruning and removals are one aspect of tree care. Being able to know, identify, and solve a problem with a tree/plant requires many other skills. Arborists are sometimes refered to as tree surgeons or tree doctors. I believe this misrepresents the profession. When you go to the doctor you see a specialist... a heart surgeon for your heart, a brain surgeon for your brain. They have specialty fields.

We are lumped into the broad category of Arborist. We know anything and everything about trees. Yeah right. Some certified arborists know very little about the skills of climbing and removing trees so for a small company it would be hard to quantify the skills of the climbing crew. ISA has a certified tree worker certification which helps to acknowledge those who are competent climbers and maybe more importance needs to be placed on that cert for tree crews.
 
Lucky he didn't get kilt - No Good

The Guy running the Job and "Training?" should have "professional experience". Before putting people in danger The CERT can't give you that or common sense.

Another endangered species? The General Practicioner ISA Certified Arborist who can prune, rig, ID dothistroma, run a clam, Squirt sawflies off with a hose, teach kids to footlock, subordinate a leader, fix a chipper, build a clientbase, ID a shrub, pay workmens comp and sales tax, talk branch collars . . . on and on . . . . The "TEST" doesn't give you Experience or Integrity but S_____! its better than nothing. Sadly theres still too many of "them" unedgeameckated treecutters out there, making this great profession look bad.


Great minds think alike, fools often agree
 
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ISA has a certified tree worker certification which helps to acknowledge those who are competent climbers and maybe more importance needs to be placed on that cert for tree crews.


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Phil how does that help the customer that hires a Certified Arborist that can't climb and can't even supervise climbers because they lack the knowledge?

The ISA does promote Certified Arborist and it is much to our benefit.........but I bet a lot of the buying public would be surprised to find Certification has nothing to do with climbing ability or even climbing knowledge.

In this respect I think the public is being dupped by the ISA and it's campaign to promote the certified arborist.

It's kind of like calling a taxi only to find out the person that shows up can't drive....and wouldn't know good driving if they saw it.....but man do they know a lot about cars./forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dan
 
Pantheraba

It is a shame what you say you saw. I'd of had a vid camera up those wankers butts and took it to the local authority.

I've seen similar, the lady said "they were real pro's, they went up this tree then swung over to that one". And there's a track of spike marks up the healthy tree that accessed the dead one.

Here's a pic of a decent prune job!
 

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And here's a close up of how they did the job
 

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And TreeCo, I'm right with you on this one.

Oh, I'm a civil engineer and architect ... "the problems on the 14th floor, come have a look" ... "oh, no thanks, I'm scared of heights and make all my assessments at the foundation!"

Get real guys, obviously there is no national standard and the ISA is a private organisation doing it's own thing.

People die and get seriously injured in this job, it's about knowing, we have the same probs here where anyone with a chainsaw can attack a tree ... little regs but times are changing. However I would assume that hiring an arborist means I have hired some-one competant in tree care ... whether that be fertilizing, soil analysis, pruning, removal etc.

There are plenty of guys on these boards who do all of these things and it's unfair then that they have the same certified status as the incompetant.

All medical specialist, if you want to compare occupations, have to do their reg med first ... there's an underlying standard that they reach before expanding to their specialist fields. But what you have here is an MD that can only prescribe drugs and not remove a splinter, stitch, etc. Lord knows, maybe not even send you to a specialist as perceives all is OK at ground level.

The lititgation gates are open where arborists may not prescribe corrective action due to incompetance. It's time to get educated and practical experience ... climbing trees is free you know!
 
Jings, Criffens, Help Ma Bob somebody got this topic into a really good debate on the ISA Certification, and Iam glad to read fellow buzzers veiws on this subject.

ISA Certification Study Guide, is but a meer basic area of related information for the arborist to identify and to understand, to show that the arborist himself has a clear understanding within the area that we all work in day in day out. But this is not to say that he doesent understand, a certain area within his feild that he does not work in, e.g. tree climbing is main example in this topic area. So hence obtaining the Tree Worker Certification would be a far better option for those who are climbers, and leave the standard Study Guide to those that dont, giving them that they fully aknowledge Chapter 12.

We have to define the word Arborist, and make it clear what the real meaning of the Job Title is. How many people once originally thought that an Arborist only climbed trees´, yes you were wrong were you all not. Aboriculture = the science of trees´ or the care of trees´. Which ever way you want to look at this.

We here in Europe as a whole, we do understand the ISA but it is promoted in a slightly different way. It is not a certication that we must obtain to work within a company or have to obtain while in the company. To be honest it wont make your salary any bigger either, as far as i can see. So what is the point of having that peice of paper? Over here we have other certification alternatives e.g. European Treeworker and Technician, in the UK they are other certifications also of a higher grade. When I worked in Holland apparently 50% of the company had to be European Treeworker Certified and that the ISA Cert was not recognised where I worked, though they were members of the ISA, and our main Boss was the Vice President of the ISA.

So now into my 7th year as an ISA Member (just paid up yesterday), I am still not certified, but have read the guide many times, it more a refernce book for me. My background is forestry and but started as a arborist six years back, and yes i dont climb but I sure as hell understand as much as the man in the tree. Thats why Iam a #1 groundy.

Let that rope run, dont the man in the tree bounce.

If you want to be taking seriously in this profession get a diploma, degree or be a recognised top climber.

Scotty
 
My comment on the certified tree worker cert and placing more importance on that was meant to mean that qualifications for that cert may be too lax or easy to complete. If we are going to have certifications they need to mean something. I would want to know that if i hired someone with a climbing cert they know how to do the job safe and correctly and what limitations are prevelent. There is alot of responsibility on the individual to make sure they know what they can and cannot do. If you can't do something, learn to do it. Practice on the ground and tie mock ups, work with others who know how to do it and ask plenty of questions. I'd rather learn that way than being in the tree and going shit, that didn't work, lets do something different.
 
Knowing the material in the ISA Arb Cert. Study Guide puts one ahead of at least 80% of the people in this business. Lets face it-the average tree guy knows little or nothing about tree biology. He is a guy who gets paid to cut on trees. I agree that this is deplorable but I'm not a fan of regulation( aside from the moral and philosophical problems with it my observations have been that it doesn't really work-Regulated as Europe and the UK are has tree mutilation disappeared?) The answer lies in education. Education for treeguys is good. Education of the public is also needed. Informed people can make informed choices. Those of us who care for trees need to be educators.
I too shake my head about "Arborists" who nothing about climbing and rigging but..... in defense of them and the ISA. Certification should not be limited only to climbers. The landscaper who wants to broaden his knowledge and credentials benefits from being certified even if he never prunes a tree more than 25 feet tall. There are areas in this country where a person can have a full time tree care operation and concentrate on young trees and onramentals to the point that climbing is never essential(I don't know of anywhere where there are no trees in need of climbing but there are areas where the numbers are low enough that a company could refuse or sub out all climbig work.)Personally I am a rather poor climber-but a good treeman. I can't imagine trying to run a tree business without knowledge of climbing and rigging skills-even if employees do all of the climbing and rigging I would hate to try to bid work that I didn't understand the execution of.....Yet there seems to be more of that-I have heard of several tree companies that are owned by "Arborists" who are only businessmen /salesman selling work they have never performed themselves. That is weird...... and a bit scary. To succeed they will have to learn and/or be saved by competent staff. If noone on staff knows what they are doing they SHOULD fail Whetehr the incompetents will fail depends to some degree upon what the people who do know the ropes are doing to show a contrast in competencey vs. incompetency.
 
I am a cert. tree worker. I feel the test was way too easy and needs to bemore involved. By having tests that require more effort to pass you would weed out some who would use it to gain $ and not show professionalism. It is definately not on a list of accomplishments I would brag about. That should say something about its worthiness.
 
The continuing attack on non-climbing Certified Arborists reminds me of when I was a "college puke" working at one of the larger landscape mtc companies in the area and most the foremen's criteria for whether or not you were a good employee was whether or not you could weld.

If you read and understand what ISA is really saying about the Certified Arborist program - it is that the program sets a minimum level of knowledge. The problem with this is that the program has been advertised to the arborist profession as something more than a "minimum" credential. The general public also views it as something more than a "minimum" credential.

Theoretically, once a person with a minimum level of knowledge gets certified, they will have to increase their knowledge by getting CEUs to maintain their certification. So hopefully the profession will incrementally get better. But, like in all areas of human endeavor there are folks who just want to be bottom feeders and scam artists and we have our share just like any other profession.

I agree with Stumper that one does not have to be a climber to be a good Certified Arborist. I know several good climbers who are certified that I wouldn't let pack my lunch. I also know some great Certified Arborists who can't climb a lick. There is much, much more to tree care than climbing.
 
Allmark, look at the climbing level you're at. It should be easy for climbers with your skill level.
The CTW program is designed for the climber that's been doing tree work for 18-24 months. We have had some climbers not pass the climbing skills portion and pass the written exam.
 
Yaah, so to remedy the situation, I decided to further my scope and get an Urban Forestry degree from U.W. About a week after I became a Washington resident and got accepted, they dropped the whole program. It is now Environmental Science and Resource Management with an Urban Forestry pathway. Try to explain that one over the resume. I might as well stayed at OSU and got a timber degree....what a rip. Is the Arborist ever going to be recognized for bringing the forest to the city? Nobody knows what I even do at that school...are we fooling ourselves?

I mean I'm still competing with loggers for pruning jobs in Portland. How many articles can a guy publish about topping in order to get that crap abolished. I think the problem is the state licensing.
General contractor, I generally can do anything I want to. Better busin. bu.= really cares alot.
 
I think the issue is the nature in which the CA label is being used. It gives legitimacy to a truck driving around even though nobody knows how to climb. And yes there are people who are excelent tree people and deserve to be CA s but for a tree company doing tree removal and pruning, maybe the CTW label is the more important label to have on the side of the truck.

It has seemed that the CTW is a lesser cousin to the CA program, and seems geared toward just climbing, rank and file workers, like the blue collar tree certification. Maybe there should be a duel certification where the CAs who climb are differentiated from those who dont? I dont know the answer but I agree that in the case of my old boss, his Certification doesn't mean squat because he cant climb and has to depend on people who dont know what they are doing to get paid.
 
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