Bowline Cinch for SRT

GibsonTreeCare

GibsonTreeCare

Been trying it out , sometimes you don't want a base-tie, especially if it is a TIP you don't want to over-stress, or a scenario where lowered pieces will get fouled in the base-tie.

How many of you back up your running bowline?

honestly...

I tie it with a good-length tail, but practicing here in my yard, I tired both backing it with a yosemite tie-off and without.

Neither budged once cinched and weighted, we rely on the running bowling while rigging over property/houses, and I never back up that bowline unless it is a larger chunk that is marled first, then the running bowline.

so? what say you all?

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To be honest I rarely do the yosemite. Just to practice. I've been very aware of the dangers of climbing on a bowline as one failed a couple years prior at school. Not sure what went wrong, not tied properly, not a running bowline don't know. I couldn't fathom what could go wrong with a properly tied one.

I go up and the tree comes down though. With a more remote, more worked on, all day tie in I'd back it up for piece of mind.
 
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exactly, if it is inspected and dressed firm, it is pretty much fool-proof, the rope itself would fail first I would think?

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I wouldn't call it foolproof. If tension is continuously applied after its tied & dressed, you're good. If it is repetitively tensioned & released, especially with the bowline moving against an object, it is possible for itself to work itself loose. Tie one around a post (with a nice stiff line if you want a quicker demonstration), dress it well, then shake the piss out of it, and you should be able to watch it loosen up. Have enough patience, and it will come apart completely.

The bowline when used with its tail forming the tautline hitch or Blake's hitch worked fine as the hitch formed a safety preventing the bowline from coming undone.

(Don't get me wrong, I actually do love the bowline for the simplicity of it, and the fact I've been tying it since I was 7-8 years old having grown up sailing with my dad. I'm just not a fan of it in situations where it could work itself loose with really bad consequences.)

-mike
 
Putting a double turn or yosemite finish doesn't make a bowline stronger but it does help it keep its shape during movement when slack. I have gotten into the habit of using one or the other in any situation that may allow slacking and re-tightening of the choked Bowline.
Failure from a dragging movement from the retightening of slack can happen, and it takes less than a second to put a yosemite finish, so why not?

Dave
 
That's what I was trying to say. It can fall apart if not basically tended when tensioned and released especially when pulled in many directions.

Why not? Bad habit that's been good to me.
 
You can always throw a stopper knot (fig 8) in the tail after the bowline has been tied. Not fool proof but it would help it from pulling through if it loosened up.
 
For a proper anchor I'd skip the bowline and go to the tree wrap/rope wrap reversing anchor. I'll look up the name. The one military or rock climbers would use.
 
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For a proper anchor I'd skip the bowline ...

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You need to not throw the baby out with the bath water. The bowline is a knot, that like all knots, has limits and specific attributes.
Learning what it can and can not do, will alow safe use of a great knot.

Dave
 
That's a base tie. Can't find the name. Can be tie midline with a fold or with the end. Go around the back of the tree over the rope's working end reversing the direction around the tree and back and forth a couple times then I'll finish it with a....running bowline.
 
yeah, I'm talking about a cinch-tie, where you run the bowline up to a limb and cinch it off.

for Ground or base ties, I have adopted Grahame McMahon's method of SRT base tie, around the stem twice, 3 half hitches around the up-rope...can easily be undone and turned into a lowering system if needed :) simple and easy.
 
I'll agree with Mike and Dave here, for years I've always used a yosemite finish when climbing on a running bowline. I do this for cinching it up on a limb or basal anchor, though I think it's more important for a basal anchor because of the reasons those guys listed. A regular bowline can work itself out when repeatedly tensioned and released. This isn't a problem for lowering branches because they are tensioned once and released on the ground.

I guess I've gotten so used to tying a bowline with yosemite finish for life support it sorta seems like why not, you know? Why would I want to question my basal anchor when I go to rap out of the tree? Doesn't really seem like it would save any time, but it would cause me unnecessary worry. Why do it?
 
Always use the yosemite here. I mean, why not? It takes what, an extra 2 seconds to make a bowline into a yosemite, and it gives that little extra feels of security. Whether I'm anchoring at the TIP or base tying, I'll use the yosemite. I've seen how easy it is to work a bowline loose. I'll take the extra two seconds to make it more secure.
 
The reason I asked is I was reading on a rec site that a lot of rec climbers just use the straight running bowline with no yosemite, and obviously, without fail ;)
 
For what it's worth a Yosemite tie off adds approximately 8% to the over all strength of the knot.

So once again why knot? Ha ha!!

Tony
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I'm responding with out reading everyone elses posts but i feel its very important so its worth mentioning again if someone already did.

The Bowline should always be backed up when used for life support. The difference between rigging and climbing is that in rigging the rope doesn't cycle continuously between tight and slack. This is the action that loosens a bowline, and very easily i might add.

If your using the end of your line a yosemites tie off is very easy. If its midline, a biner capturing the bight and standing end will do as well.

Always back it up!!! No exceptions. You don't want to take the risk. It only takes one accident.
 
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The reason I asked is I was reading on a rec site that a lot of rec climbers just use the straight running bowline with no yosemite, and obviously, without fail ;)

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I add a Yosemite and then double overhand the tail around the rope above the bowline, overkill I know but when I do a high cinched anchor or us it as a basal anchor I don't want to have to wonder about it later in the climb when I get back on the system, often I can't do a visual check on the knot from wherever I am in the tree.

I don't believe anyone who says "a lot of rec climbers don't back a Running Bowline when used for life support". Rec climbers tend to be overcautious, not the other way around.
-AJ
 
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