Backups in SRT

I did this too, Kevin. It was difficult, but I was able to I fail the hitch...however, as described by your set-up, I agree that it would be unlikely to fail a hitch in normal circumstances. I'm in the "Hitch Below is OK with Me", gang now (as long as the set-up is such that the hitch would grab before the ascender).
 
when you say fail, do you mean zip you down to the bottom of the line fail? or slide on the rope a little.

I think that is the difference between hitches and acenders.

With hitches, there is varying degrees of fail. I have tied my hitch too losse and started working the tree a few times. it would start sliding on me and make my heart thump a litle harder but I dont think it would have streaked me to the bottom of the tree. Unless it breaks. An acender on the other hand will be on all the way off.

Foot lock prussic above the head on the other hand is a different story. I believe that when a hitch is placed high above the head, there can be potential for disaster. When you reach your arms out extended and you grab that hitch, you then start sliding down, it is very difficult to overcome the instinct to grip harder resulting in the burn, and the very legitimate rule of never put your hands above your footlock prussic. I think that concept has somehow gotten extrapolated into nothing can ever go above the hitch.

This is not the case for a hitch at the waist. The hands by the waist is not a natural position to be holding on for dear life and thus the hands do not panic.
 
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when you say fail, do you mean zip you down to the bottom of the line fail? or slide on the rope a little?



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It failed. I did have to postion the ascender so that it did not slide over the hitch, but instead pushed directly down on the hitch.
 
I am currently attending an Arborist short course at Penn state. Today we covered insects that feed on trees, climbing, cableing and bracing, lightening protection and risk accesment.

I asked the instructor if a prussik was needed above the handled ascender right before he tied a monkeys fist to set his line and he said "you must back up your handled ascender with a prussik". He then followed the statment with "once I was climbing and my hand ascender got a twig jammed in it and it kept it open. I slid for nearly 10 feet before I could grab my hitch to stop"

this made my head explode and I had to laugh. I thought it funny that both sides of the argument here on the buzz prevailed in this one mans story. Oh Jim Savage, you son of a (bleep) Why must you toy with my EMOTIONS!

WHY!?
 
If I understand what he shared...he was attached with an ascender and a hitch...that both failed...until he could grab the hitch. I'd like to have a more clear understanding of his setup. This may show that a hitch doesn't work as a backup to an ascender. Until there is a clear understanding of the setup the jury will stay out.

Ask him how he came to have a stick jam in his ascender.

When I've talked with climbers who had this happen all of them had their ascenders mixed in with brush or sliding up tree limbs. As the ascender moved it shaved off bark which got sucked in with the rope. Since they were're aware of what was happening they couldn't be prepared for the outcome.

When I started using ascenders I adopted the policy of not letting my ascenders touch the tree. There have been a few times when I could not climb without having them touch the tree though. In those cases I will stop and tie a stopper knot below me then very carefully with a close eye out for any debris I would move up. Knowing the shortcomings of a tool/system has made me aware of possible failure points.

Having a lower ascender gives me great comfort too.
 
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I am currently attending an Arborist short course at Penn state. Today we covered insects that feed on trees, climbing, cableing and bracing, lightening protection and risk accesment.

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That's definitely a short course if you covered all that in one day!

-Tom
 
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Using a handled ascender without a backup is risky in my opinion and shouldn't be done.

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Darn straight it's risky. I'd be dead from the first time I used one.

It was 2002 I think. I flew out to CA to meet Jerry B. and climb the redwoods.

We don't have many 100' rope climbs in Maryland without limbs and such. So back then, I pretty much climbed trees using the rope and tree limbs and hip thrusting.

I was introduced to ascenders.

The top ascender, was a double handed thing that looked kinda like this,
692dff0d7359468df6d333c9c101b07b.gif

but had no locking closed mechanism to keep it from opening up. The older model I guess. I guess this was a Kong.

Luckily, they also set me up with a Gibbs ascender in the middle, attached to my front d-rings.

My feet had a red CMI modified with foot bars and straps to help keep the feet on them.

well, at around 100 ft up, the rope was rubbing past a limb hard, to get by the limb I was pulling on the hand held ascender in a horizontal way and twisting it so it wouldn't rub on the limb as I pushed it past the limb.

the ascender un-hooked itself and I fell backwards, the gibbs caught me at my waist of course, but I bent backwards a bit and the motion whipped off my hardhad.

It was not a very fun second, I think it got my heart going pretty good.

(oh yeah, and I've got this on film tape somewhere, it was not zoomed in, but you can see a little of the action and the hardhat falling)

If it wasn't for the mid line gibbs on the d-rings, I would have flipped all the way over and my feet would have easily peeled out of the lower foot ascender, I'm sure.

I'm glad I was introduced to ascenders with someone that knew how to set it up properly. If I had only the upper ascender and the foot ascender, I would have died for sure that first day I used them.

Needless to say, I have always used a backup. sometimes, two (the gibbs and a prussic cord).

I recently put together a rope walker system, using a cmi foot ascender and a Croll for the other ascender and use a prussic cord with hitch climber pulley. I think I might like this better then my old way of frog ascending.
 
"...at around 100 ft up, the rope was rubbing past a limb hard, to get by the limb I was pulling on the hand held ascender in a horizontal way and twisting it so it wouldn't rub on the limb as I pushed it past the limb."

This is exact scenario that I try never to get into. This is where arbos get themselves into trouble...and blame their equipment rather than the procedure.

In this situation a hitch above the ascender would have been right in there against the limb and I think that it would have been compromised at the same time.

You're fortunate to have climbed with Jerry and have the lower ascender.
 
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This is exact scenario that I try never to get into. This is where arbos get themselves into trouble...and blame their equipment rather than the procedure.

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I have been in that same scenario, I was unable to just push off of a branch or the trunk. I handled it by just adding another connection point above the obstical that was clear. After passing I removed the upper attachment point and continued my climb.

After reading some of the problems climbers have had on this site with hand ascenders I am starting to see just a simple technique issue ( baring it was not a mechanical issue). I notice that alot of climbers that have not climbed with hand ascenders much in the past like to reach as high as possable before applying there weight (as if it was foot locking with a long prusik). Doing so will cause a bad angle of pull when appling your weight. I tell climbers that I train to shorten up there reach and try not to go past there face. If you have to look up at it, you have gone to far. This will help with technique and prevent the climber from fatiguing quickly.
 
Good technique...I like your tip about having to look up=too far!

When I've had to go over an edge like this I FL or Pantin up high and snug up my lower ascender. Then I 'jump' the upper over the edge. Rolling my shoulder towards the tree and flexing to the side pushes the rope away too.
 
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I am currently attending an Arborist short course at Penn state.

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Do you ride a short bus to get to the short course?

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no. I'm driven in with a bright yellow smart car. Why do you ask?
 
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so it wouldn't rub on the limb as I pushed it past the limb.

the ascender un-hooked itself and I fell backwards, the gibbs caught me at my waist of course, but I bent backwards a bit and the motion whipped off my hardhad.

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This is what I always tend to see when an ascender fails, you fall off backwards away from the rope. the failed ascender never gets near a hitch or mid point attachment.

I'm sure a prussick at waist point will work as well as a gibbs. I've just see too many time a prussick be it just a footlock one or one on top never lock.
 
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I'm sure a prussick at waist point will work as well as a gibbs. I've just see too many time a prussick be it just a footlock one or one on top never lock.

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This is the setup that I use for Srt. The only issue with this setup is not seting tention on the hitch every so many feet. Not doing so will make the hitch lossen to a point that im sure it wont set properly when falling. Like I said no big deal just know that this happens and check as you go ( you should be doing so in any case).
 

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I'm sure a prussick at waist point will work as well as a gibbs. I've just see too many time a prussick be it just a footlock one or one on top never lock.

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This is the setup that I use for Srt. The only issue with this setup is not seting tention on the hitch every so many feet. Not doing so will make the hitch lossen to a point that im sure it wont set properly when falling. Like I said no big deal just know that this happens and check as you go ( you should be doing so in any case).

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It probably wouldn't hold you anyway. I assume this is the same hitch you tie for DdRT? On the single line, the hitch will need to hold 100% of your weight, not 50% as in DdRT. I would certainly test it, if I were you. If it didn't hold, take more wraps around the single line until it does.
 
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no. I'm driven in with a bright yellow smart car. Why do you ask?

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That's whats the driver told you, eh? Did the "smart car" have a stop sign on the side?
 
KYlimbwalker, I think I just wrote that wrong. The technique does work and hold the climbers weight with no problem. The issue... I should'nt say issue becasue the hitch is just reacting the way it wants. Any time a hitch is applied to a line that moves thru the hitch or moves over the line via micro pully minding it and does not get tension applied each movement it will loosen a little at a time. This is more seen with a pulley minding it. Rescue companies use prusik hitches for safties. If you notice after long pulls the rescuer minding the tandem prusiks when setting them will also dress them. This is due to them loosening during a haul. Stressing to new climbers to check thier rig during climbing is that more important due to this. Back to the point, it has worked great for me. I have even had the plesure of useing it in a sloppy cave.
 
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