Backups in SRT

Don't even keep going down the pro/rec path...it will quickly go off the cliff.

Knowledge is knowledge...did you ever have the opportunity to spend time listening to Alex Shigo? Read his books? He was one of the most humble men I have ever known in my life. It meant nothing to him about where or how a person learned, it was knowledge that was important.

If it's necessary, Ron and Andrew/Moss are two rec climbers that I know who have a better understanding of climbing than a lot of pro climbers. When they speak I listen, they aren't blinded by dogma and bring fresh insights to me. They are methodical and deliberate when it comes to working on a problem.

There may be practices or techniques that work in rec or pro climbing. I've certainly gotten into some hot discussions about this in the past. Dave spoke of his concern about rules from another rope access discipline over riding the applications in arbo work. Agreed, and at the same time, don't get tunnel vision. Look to the sides once in a while but don't run off the cliff.
 
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It meant nothing to him about where or how a person learned, it was knowledge that was important.

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I agree.

We climb trees with ropes and sharp objects. We live by big boy rules. I will search out knowledge from wherever and who ever has it. If I can not distinguish between what is useful and what is dangerous I would not last long in my chosen profession. If you narrow the field of who is qualified to participate to those only in our line of work, you could very easily miss a new concept. Many great things have crossed over from other professions.

I reserve the right to decide on which to use because no one is more responsible for my life than myself. This is the basis of my reticence on using crossover regulations, not the innovations, that are proven in another industry.

Dave
 
Guys, I take no pleasure in the side issues that I have been a part of in this thread. But, it's rather hard to take a guy that has gear flying off his rope and then insinuates I don't have his climbing expertise. I'm not the one with gear flying off the rope!

And if I had gear popping off my rope, I'd find out why and if it's something I was doing to cause it, I'd change my technique. If I couldn't resolve what was causing it, I'd quit using the equipment or seek some advise from someone that isn't having the problem.

But I sure wouldn't slap a prusik on and claim that's the solution, and go right on climbing the same way with the same gear.

But if those of us involved in this useless side issue could 'reset' so to speak, I'd welcome that opportunity with open arms.

Ron
 
I won't try to judge anyone's level of expertise or professionalism... but there IS a difference between production and rec climbers. Climbing most of the day every day accumulates a lot more experience than rec climbing.
A climber like Chris knows about as much as you can know about technical tree climbing and rigging.

I find Ron's systems to be well thought out if not a bit complex, and rec climbers tend to innovate more than pros. A lot of valuable stuff has been developed from rec climbing.

But rec climbers, almost by definition, reject standard practices. Production climbers follow generally accepted standards and practices as a measure of professionalism... customers don't want us innovating in their back yards.

Backups/redundant systems, whatever you want to call a secondary or tertiary rope grab (because we ARE talking rope grabs here), can be done away with completely with no ill effect... theoretically. But it's not professional, pros don't take risks they don't have to.

The best policy is, if you can back it up without any major loss of efficiency, then don't be stupid, back it up.

But look at harness bridges... if a bridge fails, there is no backup on the planet that will save you, even a complete redundant rope system.

As for soft vs. mechanical... what's the difference if it works? I trust ascenders to not slip... never had one slip that wasn't on ice covered rope. But I'd rather use a hitch as a primary attachment because there is less to go wrong and I know my hitches because i splice'em myself... I don't know how the ascender was assembled or tested.



Dave sums it up nicely...
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I reserve the right to decide on which to use because no one is more responsible for my life than myself.

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Blinky,
Interesting. However, do you drive a horse and buggy because you set it up and you don't know who built your vehicle and there's more to go wrong with a car? Do you SRT on hitches? Do you use a handsaw because you don't know who builds the chain saws and there's more to them?

In all fairness you probably think my setups are a bit complex, because I experiment a lot and I often post what I think are my more impressive ones. You really wouldn't expect me to post routine and commonly used setups would you?

Often my setups have to do the work of two people and I only have me to do the work of two so yeah, it does require more complex setups. But, I do have the luxury of time to set things up.

And, because I have no choice but to climb by myself, I try to exercise a bit more than normal safety precautions - like always being tied in twice and to different anchors (via a lanyard) if the opportunity exists. I also always have a walkie-talkie (would that be a couple of cans and string in a less complex setup?) so my wife can keep tabs on me. But I couldn't really critisize someone for using a more streamlined method.

I have to disagree that there's less to go wrong with a hitch. We've already talked about the problem of hitches requiring regular 're-setting' to prevent them from getting loose and not grabbing. That's the very case for a soft backup of an ascender. A mechanical ascender does not have that problem.
 
Ron, hopefully you didn't read what I wrote as criticism, it wasn't intended that way. I've put together some pretty complex stuff myself.

I don't SRT anything accept access and my ascender backup is hitches above the frames. Jugging rope on rock, I don't backup at all, two working ascenders two connections, that's it. But climbing rock is a recreational discipline.

If a hitch other than a VT isn't catching, something's wrong with it... and I don't know of anybody using a VT as a backup. My ascender backups are tautlines or prussics depending on the rope diameter... I test them every time and they catch every time.

[BTW, I'm OK with a VT that doesn't always catch, it was disconcerting at first but after a while you learn the situations that cause it to stay compressed and it becomes habit to compensate... and the XT variation pretty much always catches for me anyway.]

My biggest problem with mechanical ascenders is they are relatively heavy, only go up and can't be reset under load. A knot is light, does all those things and you can just pocket it or throw it out of the tree when you're done.

I stand by my statement that production and rec climbers are different. One isn't better than the other but they have very different motives and that affects how they use equipment. When you climb everyday and people are on the ground waiting on you, the goal is safety and efficiency with frequent, rapid changes in position... you have to focus on working as much as climbing. One of the ways you do that is by developing good systems and habits and sticking with them. When your life is on that rope every single day, you know what you can trust and what you can't.
 
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Ron, hopefully you didn't read what I wrote as criticism, it wasn't intended that way. I've put together some pretty complex stuff myself.

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I may have read some into it you really didn't say - my bad.

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...If a hitch other than a VT isn't catching, something's wrong with it...

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Several people have given specific examples of non-vt hitches failing to catch and the problem of loosening when not frequently reset.

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...My biggest problem with mechanical ascenders is they are relatively heavy, only go up and can't be reset under load. A knot is light, does all those things and you can just pocket it or throw it out of the tree when you're done.

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Yep, I agree, that's all true. And, prusiks can be loaded either direction and can be used on angled ropes.

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...I stand by my statement that production and rec climbers are different. One isn't better than the other but they have very different motives and that affects how they use equipment. When you climb everyday and people are on the ground waiting on you, the goal is safety and efficiency with frequent, rapid changes in position... you have to focus on working as much as climbing. One of the ways you do that is by developing good systems and habits and sticking with them. When your life is on that rope every single day, you know what you can trust and what you can't.

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Blinky, Tom warned us about the rec vs pro thing. I think he was right - it leads to a cliff. I must point out that it is a very few production climbers that have a problem keeping their ascenders on rope, not rec climbers, not cavers, inspite of all the mud, not rescue workers, not rope access workers, and not rock climbers. Who's having the problem and why? Could it be they are using their ascenders incorrectly?
 
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...If a hitch other than a VT isn't catching, something's wrong with it...

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Several people have given specific examples of non-vt hitches failing to catch and the problem of loosening when not frequently reset.

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Then something's wrong. The only correctly tied hitch I've ever had to reset was a VT. I've used Blakes, Mich's and Distels in production. Any knot will slip, that is slide down the rope slowly, if it's not tied to support a heavy climber... that's not what I'm talking about. A VT will simply stay in the compressed position sometimes after shucking in slack, it literally has NO purchase at all until you set it.


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...I stand by my statement [...]

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Blinky, Tom warned us about the rec vs pro thing. I think he was right - it leads to a cliff. I must point out that it is a very few production climbers that have a problem keeping their ascenders on rope, not rec climbers, not cavers, inspite of all the mud, not rescue workers, not rope access workers, and not rock climbers. Who's having the problem and why? Could it be they are using their ascenders incorrectly?

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Tom warned us but I don't see it that way. I think you have to view it as us AND them, not us VS. them. We all love and climb trees, that unites us. But it's different when you climb every day and you have ground personnel serving you and depending on to put wood on the ground. It's like comparing a cropduster pilot to a GA pilot, they both love to fly and are both pilots. The difference in their level of experience brings about differences in how they choose and use their tools. Denying that leaves out a crucial factor in the debate.

It's important to keep in mind that rec climbers don't ordinarily climb dead trees or use chainsaws... that's a BIG difference. When you're in a dead tree, backups are practically superfluous because you're on spikes and the real danger is in falling wood or primary structure failure... it colors your perspective about safety and backups.

The idea that only tree climbers have ascenders come off the rope is wrong, there are dozens of cases where ascenders detached from ropes in caving and rock/mountain climbing. Some of those lockouts in your pictures (excellent pictures BTW) can be defeated by twigs and vines or even gloves. At least one rescuer in Yosemite died from an ascender failure... they definitely will depart the rope... probably from error... but errors happen, hence backups.

I guess that's why I make the point about pro and rec. When you look at an ascender academically, it seems failsafe, you can go thousands of feet on it over a lifetime and never have an incident. When you use them every day (in other words hundreds of feet every week) in all kinds of conditions you soon realize that ANYTHING is possible and it's very unwise to think something is safer because it's mechanical. It's all dangerous and you're betting your skill and experience that you can do it safely... paraphrased from Gerry Beranek.

I'm really not arguing for either side... actually, I'm not sure how many sides we have going here. I think Mechs and hitches are reliable enough to use without backup, SRT or DdRT... but I back'em up anyway because it's part of what I think separates professional arborists from hacks. Ranger's point about using a hitch on SRT not withstanding.

Seriously though, consider what I said about a harness bridge. It is THE crucial link. I can think of no good way to build a redundant one that would get used (I've tried, it gets too busy).
How do you backup a bridge?
 
I have been playing around with hitches a lot, I have a hard time tying one that fails. Iven if it feels like it is not catching, a couple of feet down the rope it catches, sometimes in ddrt it will slip and slide slowly making work positioning hard. While climbing SRT i find the rules to be more or less the same, Even with an apparantly very loose VT. I will jump off the rope and maybe drop a few inches before it catches. This is a very difficult thing to do mentally.

I trust my hitches and find them to be very versatile and light compared to acenders. To me hitches are a much more elegant tool than all the moving parts and metal of acenders.

Hitches are also multi directional which gives me a degree of comfort. Sometimes on acenders I have locked myself up because i cant go higher to get slack and disengage and i cant get down. For me, acenders are useful handles to work the rope with, but I prefer a hitch to be my primary attachment to the rope. its just what I like. for now anyway.

Lots of good thoughts here. glad to see soem action on the buzz. its seemd rather dead as of late.
 
Blinky,

The rec/pro approach/view that you have works. Too often it has become Vrs. and that goes no where.

The arbo world has lots of clutter in it that other rope access don't. That means, to me, we should be doing at least what the other rope access disciplines do...and more.

Years ago I read through every page of Storricks website. After seeing the history of gear development I got a better understanding of SRT. The nuances of each piece of gear becomes clear.

People like yourself who have cross training understand things better than climbers who have only worked in trees.
 
Ron- I think I know what's wrong here. You seem to think that I was being disparaging to rec climbers, and therefore you. I don't mean to insinuate that you don't know anything. I think I was pretty clear that rec climbers have a good understanding of how to climb a rope. But a rec climber has absolutely no understanding of the difficult situations that a professional climber finds himself or herself in during the course of performing a job.

It's not that you don't know anything, Ron- it's that you don't know what you don't know. You don't have the experience required to state that ascenders do not need to be backed up. You have probably climbed dozens of trees. A professional has climbed in the thousands. There is a difference whether you believe it or not.

You stated that I was not using the ascenders correctly. I think I was, but I didn't read a manual. The important part to me was that they fell off at all. I am responsible for the safety of several individuals besides myself. Where you see efficiency, I see a safety concern.
 
In regards to the hitch sliping or not catching. I have made comments on this and I would like to clarify why I belive that it might be happening/what I was thinking durring sliping/catching. With the sliping (I will use the V.T for example)I do notice that it keeps it's shape and form nicely, but it will loosen in the scence that it allows enough space in the coil area for the rope to pass with no friction against the rope. Next lets use the prusik hitch for example. When used during a long pull I have found that durring a whistle stop it has always caught the load. The only issue I have seen and have wanted to test was it's breaking strength. Reason being I notice that the hitch will lose it's form and and when catching the load will look nothing of the way it should. Granted it has always cathed I just wounder how much strength lose there is. The other issue is if the riggers are not paying attention when the prusik does this and the line is taken again (with a pulley behind the prusik) it stands the chance of being fed thru the pulley jamming it. I will try to find some pics of this happening at some of the rescue classes I have helped with.
 
Seems tarded to keep bickering about this, cenders are to, or should be, backed. Be it by a second cender or a hitch. Hitches are known to fail just a cenders are. This thread was about being above or below. I feel and know from use a hitch above, after 40ft of jugging, only will grab at best 80% of the time.

The fact that a hand ascender will come down and break a hitch lose making you fall to your death is about the same as spotting a white whale. Will this ever change the rules?, most likly not. Someday when all the Captain Ahab. Ishmaels are replaced with younger Fletcher Christians rules will be rolled.

When I teach a climber new to ascenders I always make them watch The Nforce vidieo This is the best training and helpful vid I've found. The tip at the end is the most useful info I think any company has put out. If any will confess, if they had a cender fail, it was do mostly to the rope and cender angle.
 
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Ron- I think I know what's wrong here. You seem to think that I was being disparaging to rec climbers...

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Nope, I never even implied that. I clearly stated you made disparaging remarks about Tom, a professional tree climber. It was an intentional attempt to discredit him.

Then you did in fact try to use a discrediting approach on me as you did Tom.

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...But a rec climber has absolutely no understanding of the difficult situations that a professional climber finds himself or herself in during the course of performing a job.

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Right, we just go up and down a rope on perfect trees, never do sloped rope entries without ascenders coming off, we never do limb walks, we never do DdRT AND SRT traverses, and on and on and on.

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...It's not that you don't know anything, Ron- it's that you don't know what you don't know.

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Explain to us again how I've never had an ascender come off rope and you have and yet I'm the one that doesn't know what I don't know.

And if I were gonna try to make some preposterous claim like that, I sure wouldn't come back and say I didn't read the instructions - there's a clue right there.

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...You don't have the experience required to state that ascenders do not need to be backed up. You have probably climbed dozens of trees. A professional has climbed in the thousands. There is a difference whether you believe it or not.

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How do you know how much experience I have and whether it's enough or not? Let's not forget it's you, not me, having problems with ascenders coming off. And it's you, not me, that don't read the instructions that come with the ascenders.

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...You stated that I was not using the ascenders correctly. I think I was, but I didn't read a manual...

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You think you were? How can we be sure you were? Here's a thought, what if you have problems with ascenders popping of the rope; that's a pretty good clue.

Here's another: "...but I didn't read a manual..."

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...The important part to me was that they fell off at all.

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And it doesn't bother you that at all that very few are having this problem, and that there is a simple solution that will prevent an ascender from coming off (biner in the top hole), and yet you continue to use them in the same manner. And you don't think any of that warrents a peak at the instruction manual.

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...I am responsible for the safety of several individuals besides myself. Where you see efficiency, I see a safety concern.

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Well don't you think for their sake you might oughta take a look at the manuals for the gear they're hanging their lives on?
 
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Seems tarded to keep bickering about this, cenders are to, or should be, backed. Be it by a second cender or a hitch. Hitches are known to fail just a cenders are. This thread was about being above or below. I feel and know from use a hitch above, after 40ft of jugging, only will grab at best 80% of the time.

The fact that a hand ascender will come down and break a hitch lose making you fall to your death is about the same as spotting a white whale. Will this ever change the rules?, most likly not. Someday when all the Captain Ahab. Ishmaels are replaced with younger Fletcher Christians rules will be rolled.

When I teach a climber new to ascenders I always make them watch The Nforce vidieo This is the best training and helpful vid I've found. The tip at the end is the most useful info I think any company has put out. If any will confess, if they had a cender fail, it was do mostly to the rope and cender angle.

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Nice HÖLLENREICH, now that we know how articulate you can be, we're gonna expect more of it. Just kiddin' ya.

That was really, really well said.

And, great video - I just ordered an NForce ascender. Thanks - I think.
 
Ron, Honest, I'm really not trying to get in your face but Chris has GOBS of experience in trees and he's well educated. He's right that you don't know what you don't know. I don't doubt you have lots of experience and have done things in trees I've never done... but we are talking orders of magnitude more time on rope. You would have similar contentions if Chris tried tell you don't know how to do your job even though he does have some knowledge about engineering. Work climbing is nothing like rec climbing, they are separate disciplines with separate goals but similar gear and techniques.

Nobody is saying pros are elite and rec guys are noobs... but it's really different. I climb rocks for fun, I'm a rec climber and I've been doing it for more than 30 years. But no way would I try to tell a young SAR climber how to use her gear because her interest is vocational... she studies it and trains continuously. It's her livelihood. When she gets the call she can perform at her top level immediately and sustain it for as long as it takes. I would be slow and asking a LOT of questions were I asked to join a technical rock rescue... even though I practice rescue. It's just different dude.

Ascenders popping off rope... I know it happens. Statistically Chris is more likely to pop an ascender because he covers a LOT more rope than say, a rock climber or caver... and he's doing it in gritty, twiggy, high pressure situations. Ascenders are made for mud and ice not trees, so they perform better in those conditions.


Plus, I think Chris is coming off more abrasive than he actually means... he's ugly as all get out but fundamentally he's a bright, caring guy. He just takes this seriously and knowing him, that make me want to hear what he has to say.
 
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