Backups in SRT

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KyLimbwalker, how should inexperienced climbers back up friction hitches?

Let me guess, you're going to say friction hitches are time tested and proven and don't need to be backed up. Well, the same can be said for mechanical ascenders and they've been proven in far worse environments than trees.

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Inexperienced climbers should take anything they learn via a computer, with a grain of salt. Reading an incomplete explanation on a discussion board such as TreeBuzz and trying to apply it to reality without having personal instruction from an intelligent/experienced climber, is a good way to get killed.
 
Ron- inexperienced climbers should learn directly from experienced climbers, not the Treebuzz. And yes, the majority of experienced climbers use friction hitches (though I don't know anyone who backs them up).

And I don't believe "worse" has any real meaning as far as distinguishing between a caving environment or a tree's crown. They're just different. I'd rather have someone spit on my ascender than jam a stick into it.
 
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...Inexperienced climbers should take anything they learn via a computer, with a grain of salt. Reading an incomplete explanation on a discussion board such as TreeBuzz and trying to apply it to reality without having personal instruction from an intelligent/experienced climber, is a good way to get killed.

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I couldn't agree more!
 
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Ron- inexperienced climbers should learn directly from experienced climbers, not the Treebuzz. And yes, the majority of experienced climbers use friction hitches (though I don't know anyone who backs them up).

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Inexperienced climbers should learn directly from experienced climbers, thats never been an issue whatsoever.

And what you mean, is the majority of experienced tree climbers use friction hitches. That's never been questioned either.

The issue is, whether tree climbing is so hostile that mechanical ascenders have/need to be backed up. I pointed out some really hostile environments that ascenders are used in without friction hitch backups.

The attendant issue I believe you brought up is that ascenders can somehow come off a rope. What I suspect you mean here is that you have one specific brand of ascender that was prone to do that before the company corrected a design problem.

But just put that to bed, specifically which ascender came off with you?

And BTW, was it because something broke, a limb got jammed into it, or because of a design flaw?

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...And I don't believe "worse" has any real meaning as far as distinguishing between a caving environment or a tree's crown. They're just different. I'd rather have someone spit on my ascender than jam a stick into it.

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You've never been caving have you? Go do a few caves and then come back as see if you think a cave experience is equivalent of getting some spit on an ascender.
 
Just for the record, I'm not saying it's wrong to back up a mechanical ascender with a friction hitch. I just haven't seen that being taught anywhere but on TB. Most rope disciplines I know of use backup systems, not a single component backup.

The backup system is, of course, far superior than backing up any single piece of gear in the life support system.

For example, when I climb, once I've reached the first TIP, I am continously tied in twice, and mostly to two separate anchor points, once with the rope I'm climbing - RADS - all mechanical, w/o backups on anything, and second with my lanyard.

If I advance my lanyard, in order to avoid being held by only one point while I advance my lanyard, I hook up the other end of the lanyard to yet another point and then remove the first lanyard connection. So I'm never tied in only once at anytime.

I believe that is far, far superior to simply backing up an ascender with a prusik.
 
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There is no way in blue blazes that a hand ascender can push down a weighted hitch.

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I might be missing something here. When I am hanging on my rope and my hitch is weighted I use my hand to pull down on my hitch which causes be to descend on the line.

If my mechanical ascender is above my hitch when ascending with me pulling down on the ascender with my full weight causing me to go up the line and that ascender fails mechanically it will come down very quickly with a lot of force onto the hitch below which will be pushed down and not stopping the fall.

I set up my ascentree yesterday with a VT below it and unlocked the came and pulled it down on top of the VT and it pushed the hitch down.
 
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For example, when I climb, once I've reached the first TIP, I am continously tied in twice, and mostly to two separate anchor points, once with the rope I'm climbing - RADS - all mechanical, w/o backups on anything, and second with my lanyard.

If I advance my lanyard, in order to avoid being held by only one point while I advance my lanyard, I hook up the other end of the lanyard to yet another point and then remove the first lanyard connection. So I'm never tied in only once at anytime.


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It doesn't sound like you climb for speed.
 
Where's rangerdanger? He definitely got his money's worth on this thread!

lam.gif


-Tom
 
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...It doesn't sound like you climb for speed.

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My first priority is safety, not speed. And yes, there are some shortcuts that I could take and go a little faster, but I choose to maximize safety instead of speed.
 
I think when people attack the person instead of the issue, you should expect some heat in a thread.

I believe there's been some inappropriate personal accusations made instead of debating the issue.
 
I think you can go fast and safe,I take alot of pride in doing both.In fact I think we all should.I guess this is a whole different thread though.
 
Without getting all wrapped up in the caving bs I keep reading, here's my experience thus far. I've had mechanical ascender fail multiple times. Luckily I had a back up hitch. Even my grigri and yes, even the god of all ascenders, the uniscender, has slipped before.

I had a vt slip a little once. When I first tied it and didn't know to dress it better than I had.

Comfort level says a lot. My comfort is always in some nasty, freaky sweaty rope on rope action.
 
I also have much more faith in hitches than mechanicals. Never had one fail but I have heard some horror stories. I do use mechanical ascenders occasionally, mostly long SRT ascents. When I first started using mechanicals I knew they should be backed up. I was backing up with a hitch below the ascender. Then at the KY TCC a couple years ago it was brought to my attention the possibility of a twig being lodged between the cam and the rope causing the device to slip down the rope. In the event this happened the ascender could push my friction hitch down with it. While I think this is an unlikely scenario, it could happen and I don't want to put my faith in the ascender jamming on the hitch. Now when I use ascenders I back them up with a hitch above the ascender. This is what I feel most comfortable with. I do feel like this is a good debate and hopefully the industry can come to a better consensus of acceptable/required back-ups/redundancies.
 
I think that being tied in twice would def be safer! But the practicality of it in tree work is none. It would be next to impossible to have the same efficiency while working two devices (either hitches or mechanical).
 
I have forgotten something that is sooooo basic that it has just blended into the background for me.

A number of years ago Peter Jenkins from Tree Climbers Intl. and I were talking about a safety concern of his. He has put more people in trees than anyone on Earth I think. The climbers would use DdRT with a Blakes. He was very concerned that a climber was going to grab their hitch without a ground belay on the rope and then fall, hitting the ground. He asked if I had any ideas about how to solve this problem. My suggestion was to tie a series of slip knots in the down rope. If the slip knots are tied every 8-10 feet that is the furthest anyone will ever fall. After that conversation tying stopper/slip knots has been standard climbing procedure.

I had read about doing that when people are jugging up Big Walls. There are other stoppers but this was the one I shared.

Whenever I am using a new tool or technique I place stoppers in my rope until I'm 100% confident that I understand any shortcomings or nuances of the new system.

I've never had an ascender slip on the rope...and it goes without saying, none have ever come off either! One of my climbers thumbed the cam on my old Kongs and slipped about 8-10'. he cracked a bone in his heel and I changed the way that the ascenders were rigged to prevent thumbing from ever happening. And...I trained people in the shortcomings of the system.

if I ever had an ascender slip, much less come off a rope, I would be doing some serious analysis. When I was climbing on LockJacks the clutches would wear so they would creep a little. This gave me a warning. The never slipped though.

I need to hear more of the story about ascenders coming off ropes or failing. What ropes? for many years arbos were using ascenders on half inch ropes. Once Fly hit the market there was no excuse for arbos to not use the right rope with mechanicals. But...even to this day I see people using them with large ropes and with the knowledge that it is wrong, but accepted. What???
 
The ascender i saw fail was on lava. It just stopped grabbing. After a few footlocks the device would completely stopp grabbing the rope and could be slid up and down with out any resistance.
 
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