Backups in SRT

Sounds to me like some of you more experience climbers need to get your heads together and come up with a list of features and contact some manufacturers - maybe even Sherrill Tree - they seem to be pretty reponsive to new innovations.
 
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Jimmy wrote a good description of the 'red zone' for ascender use

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Damn I thought I was the one that wrote about keeping it parallel.
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You know Holly, you contributing in a civil manner is kinda making me uncomfortable... you didn't like... start taking Prozac or something did you?
 
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So in my opinion we have a need for someone to develop a proper central attachment point that will handle SRT for the tree industry.

Dave

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We already have one... a friction hitch... and it has the added benefit of being fully bi-directional and saves us from carrying an extra ascender.
 
A lot of truth there Blinky. Cheap, adjustable, self-sealing (i.e. protected), easily renewed, light, reliable.

BTW, what material and hitch do you use for friction hitches?
 
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You know Holly, you contributing in a civil manner is kinda making me uncomfortable... you didn't like... start taking Prozac or something did you?


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I know what you mean. It is starting to freak me out a little too.
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You know Holly, you contributing in a civil manner is kinda making me uncomfortable... you didn't like... start taking Prozac or something did you?

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LMAO.

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it comes to my attention that a deflector at the top of the ascender would be the answer

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Pretty sure Kong has approached this problem, they've added 2 new safty blocks for the cam. If anything I belive they are on the right path for future tree ascenders.
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Pretty sure Kong has approached this problem, they've added 2 new safty blocks for the cam. If anything I belive they are on the right path for future tree ascenders.

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Holly,
Interesting. Did you notice that the pic seems to indicate they have taken a 'croll' size ascender, and attached handles to it.

Looks to me like they've got a two for one going. They can use the rope grab mechanism as a stand alone device or attach handles to it to make a 'new' device. Pretty clever if you ask me, of course you didn't.

Ol Blinky is gonna gag to see such innovation coming from his arch enemy
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So in my opinion we have a need for someone to develop a proper central attachment point that will handle SRT for the tree industry.

Dave

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We already have one... a friction hitch... and it has the added benefit of being fully bi-directional and saves us from carrying an extra ascender.

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A friction hitch doesn't even come close to the performance of mechanicals on SRT. They can be made to work, but that is not as good as we can do.

Dave
 
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A friction hitch doesn't even come close to the performance of mechanicals on SRT. They can be made to work, but that is not as good as we can do.

Dave

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I agree hitches on SRT are a a pain for working... but we're talking ascent only, right? A hitch will do anything a mech will in that application.

Ron, I picked up some 8mm Ocean Dyneema (aka Ocean Polyester) at TCIA and I'm loving it. Once I have the splice down it will be really sweet. Before I was using HRC which also super sensitive but I prefer Ocean's tight jacket.
 
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...I agree hitches on SRT are a a pain for working... but we're talking ascent only, right? A hitch will do anything a mech will in that application.

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Well, in some configurations, the 'middle' hitch that was brought up would have to self-tend, i.e if the climber strokes upward, the hitch has to advance upward with him without the climber having to tend it. With a mechanical 'middle' ascender, the advance is typically done via a shoulder strap or equivalent connected to the top hole of the ascender.

But I suppose a friction hitch could be made to self-tend with a micro pulley kinda like the friction hitch in a DdRT. I hope you're happy! Now I'm gonna have to try that.

The foot and hand friction hitches are generally more difficult to advance on SRT than mechanicals. Some of that is because they have handles and that can be a big help.

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...Ron, I picked up some 8mm Ocean Dyneema (aka Ocean Polyester) at TCIA and I'm loving it. Once I have the splice down it will be really sweet. Before I was using HRC which also super sensitive but I prefer Ocean's tight jacket.

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All I've ever used is simply nylon prusik cord, 7-8mm and of late I2I 8mm BeeLine. But I don't use them in SRT. But, see, now I'm curious, so I'll have to go out and experiment now. Boy, I have to do everything!
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I'll have to try some of the 8mm Ocean Dyneema.
 
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I agree hitches on SRT are a a pain for working... but we're talking ascent only, right? A hitch will do anything a mech will in that application.

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So let's see if I have this correct. The friction hitch has been around for almost as long as rope itself. And even though it is less expensive, more secure on the line, and apparently works just as well, we in the tree industry are the only ones who actually understand this.

All other SRT access disciplines are just missing the obvious?

Don't get me wrong, I love the friction hitch. It has been my friend for a lot of years in all of its different shapes and forms. I have just yet to find one that would advance as smoothly and catch as instantly and repeatedly as a mechanical on SRT.

Dave
 
Just found this posted over on arbtalk. Posted by DrewB. Think he has some good points here.

"Whilst this is quite neat and compact ive decided that its actually quite dodgy. Putting 2 ascenders real close to each other and so far away from you has POTENTIAL problems. as you move upwards with each step, there comes a point where both ascenders are close to your waist and at this point if you slipped you could have up too 1.5 m (roughly) of slack to be taken up. I reckon the forces generated by this may be enough to strip the rope or worst case, cut through the rope. The use of the double braid rope (tachyon) probably doesnt help-it really shoulkd be a kernmantle rope so that the strength is all in the core. Im thinking that any srt ascent using a handled ascender(ascension,futura,basic,etc..) really should have some form of chest ascender(croll,duck,vt,etc..) to ensure that a fall arrest situation is not produced. Its the same in footlocking but at least ther you have a hitch with the ability to slide and dissipate the forces. anyone else?"
 
Ranger...can you post the thread link?

A properly tuned SRT rig has all of the pieces seperated and dialed-in so that there isn't gear-lock.

So many times I see climbers who havn't taken the time to dial in the lengths of their attachments. I've found that even 1/8" can make a difference in preformance.

Read ON ROPE for a good description.
 
Tom that is a good point to bring up about the distance of your connection points. I tell new climbers that it is a pain to get right to what you like but it pays ten fold in the end. Also I have found that if you use a cord as a way to tie your points together the cord will be a perfect lenght to use for lead climbing on tower rescues.
 
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Just found this posted over on arbtalk. Posted by DrewB. Think he has some good points here.

"Whilst this is quite neat and compact ive decided that its actually quite dodgy. Putting 2 ascenders real close to each other and so far away from you has POTENTIAL problems. as you move upwards with each step, there comes a point where both ascenders are close to your waist and at this point if you slipped you could have up too 1.5 m (roughly) of slack to be taken up. I reckon the forces generated by this may be enough to strip the rope or worst case, cut through the rope. The use of the double braid rope (tachyon) probably doesnt help-it really shoulkd be a kernmantle rope so that the strength is all in the core. Im thinking that any srt ascent using a handled ascender(ascension,futura,basic,etc..) really should have some form of chest ascender(croll,duck,vt,etc..) to ensure that a fall arrest situation is not produced. Its the same in footlocking but at least ther you have a hitch with the ability to slide and dissipate the forces. anyone else?"

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Im talking about using the Kong Duck attached a petzl ascension handled ascender, i thought it was quite a neat idea but now i think its a bit dodgy.
 
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I agree hitches on SRT are a a pain for working... but we're talking ascent only, right? A hitch will do anything a mech will in that application.

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So let's see if I have this correct. The friction hitch has been around for almost as long as rope itself. And even though it is less expensive, more secure on the line, and apparently works just as well, we in the tree industry are the only ones who actually understand this.

All other SRT access disciplines are just missing the obvious?

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Dave

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This actually gets sensitive for me because the SPRAT and IRATA guys like to look down their noses at tree guys because we don't use their systems or comply with their standards... never mind ours have been around just a BIT longer and theirs are based on many of the components originated for tree climbing and sailing and mountaineering.
Industrial RA disciplines are about going someplace on a rope and doing stuff in a relatively static position. They don't have the continuous movement, weaving between limbs and changes in position we do. Tree guys almost never stop moving, RA guys don't really do that... not with the kind of obstacles we have.
That means they can get by with mechs even though they aren't as versatile as a hitch... and mechs make SRT practical where a hitch doesn't. They aren't missing anything, they just don't NEED a hitch.

In other words, I doesn't matter to me what other SRT disciplines do because they haven't developed a system that does what we need.

For going UP a single rope, a hitch will do nicely as a rope grab, particularly at that central tie-in point. Hitches are cheap, light, bi-directional and highly adjustable. Why make a mech for that when a hitch works fine?

Speaking strictly for myself, I like mechanical ascenders, use'em just about every day, but I don't like the weight... they get caught on stuff if you stow'em on your harness and you can't just toss'em out of the tree... hitches have none of those problems. Adding another mech would be over the top for my particular climbing style... I also don't want to wear a chest harness.

I'm glad that you guys are developing SRT for tree climbing. This is what it takes to ultimately produce viable systems for tree work. Maybe I'll join you at some point but I'm really happy with my climbing system as it is and plan to stick with it (with the usual tweeking) until I find it wanting. The Unicender has my attention, it's a cool device... but I'm not ready for it yet.
 
I'm not so sure Blinky, I use to play with helical hitches on SRT. Velocity rope with a Velocity helical 'tail'. I thought it took significantly more effort to climb that way and gave up on it. A secondary issue is where to grab to pull oneself up to advance - that handle on an ascender sure makes it easy, you can even use two hands and have a choice of the handle or the top of the ascender. Putting a hand on top of a friction hitch is a no-no when ascending.

The reason I was doing that in the first place was the very advantages you listed for hitches. You know I'm gonna have to go play with this some now.

Some of the advanced hitches may be more friendly to SRT, but their holding power has to be double what it would be for DdRT.

The only truely bi-directional friction hitch I know of is a prusik, and they will tighten pretty quickly on SRT ascents, and once they do they have to be loosened to advance them. And even short descents on friction hitch requires the same technique as down climbing with ascenders because the friction hitches don't descend well at all on SRT when loaded.

One disadvantage of friction hitches is that if the rope/hitch gets wet, holding power may be adversely affected whereas a mechanical is essentially immune to wetness.

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Blinky,
This is a bit puzzling to me, I have no reason whatsoever to doubt what you're saying, yet I have tried SRT on hitches many times and not been impressed. What are we seeing/doing that produces such different impressions????
 
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