Backups in SRT

In my opinion the BD Ascender is the most dangerous Ascender for us Arbos, because of the Cam mechanism. Little Branches (Twigs?) can easily manipulate it.
No Treeclimbing Shop in Europe sells it therefore.

I am very interested how you guys like it !

EDIT: Wow, look what Höllenreich (weird name btw) typed at the same time !
 
Actually had a pair of kongs come off with a biner in the top hole and the guy using them fell and broke his arm in my front yard.This was years ago and he wasnt using a backup.Come to find out the kongs had a defect in them from the factory.Ive had ascenders come off ropes multiple times,cmi,petzl and kong.Its usually always from the angle or hitting branches or even accidently opening it with my hand.I dont worry much when they open or slide because I always try to use a croll below or a prussik above it.Ive had ascender/descenders slip as well -the uni and the eddy both have givin me some good scares.Almost every time something did go wrong im sure you could go back and blame the operator-me.But with these products there is sometimes a low margin for error-so yes I would agree being redundant or backups are a must.I think it is great to look into the other rope industries and see how they do things and sometimes incorporate them into tree care.But just because they do not climb the way we do-we should automatically abandon our proven techniques.I believe trees offer a unique amount of obstacles that some of the other rope climbing industries do not.Ive been climbing with srt for years and believe it truly has a place in our industry.But in saying that ,I think that doubled rope is still the more suited for tree climbing and more efficient.Its not praticed in the othe rope ascending fields but it works great for tree care.It all depends on the tree so its always good to have alot of options and not to get biased on one particular technique.But instead use the right technique for the right tree.At this years masters challenge we where being asked if we are gonna set up and srt system.I said I dont know I havent seen the tree yet.Not every system is the best for each tree.in fact sometimes being kinda narrow minded and stuck on one thing will cost you time and even safety.Ive really tried to incorporate all the things ive learned thru the years and try to have a really large tool box.As far a rec climber and pro climber I belive there is a vast diffrence not so much in knowledge but situational experience.I was and avid rec climber for years-but the local parks department kinda put a stop to that.Ive been a professional climbing arborist for 15 years .to me the diffrence is about pressure and just the stakes are so much greater.Ive done rec climbing classes for the local college-and yes you have alot of responsibility for everyones safety,but its nothing compared to resposibilty in day to day arboriculture.As a pro climber you have to deal with so many factors that are not even in the equation as a rec climber.The pressure to make money tops the list and that in itself changes everything.I remember recently doing a big pecan removal over about 3 million in homes,with people in both.First dealing with all the expectations around you-the homeowner not wanting you to scratch a shingle or make a dent in her soft grass.The crane operator not wanting to overload who is blindly on a 2 way-the whole time your paying him 200 and hour for his 100 ton rig.just sitting in the tree on spikes for hours cutting giant wood with and ms 660 in front of your chest,praying you calculated the wood weight right.Its raining and slick but at this point you cant stop the crane operater has a minimum for showing up,so yo gotta press on.This is just one example of what you would never face during a rec climb-pressure and stress that can only be experienced to fully appreciate.Rec climbing to me is fun I really enjoy it-but work is work and not usually very fun.So i guess after its your 4th tree and the jobs under bid but you really dont wanna work for free that day-you might be careless its cold and wet the homeowner is riding you and you just wanna get the heck outta of there and yes you might be careless and pop your ascender off your rope.But thats why this is a good discussion because back ups or redundency is totally needed for us mortals who dont know how to use ascenders properly.
 
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Cam mechanism. Little Branches (Twigs?) can easily manipulate it.


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I'm not sure how this can happen with the The Nforce. The BD N-force ascender does everything that other ascenders do. The beauty of them is that they do some things that other’s don’t, such as shift extra force onto ropes, allow for 360 degree rotation of your attachment carabiner, and offer an extra cam lock.

The BD ascenders have three features that set them apart.

1) Force-Multiplying Linkage
2) Z pin cam lock: No other ascender on the market has 2 locks for their cams.
3) 360 Degree Carabiner Attachment: The hole in the handle is big enough to allow you to rotate a giant locking carabiner 360 degrees through the hole, accommodating even the beefiest twist-lock ones.
 
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Actually had a pair of kongs come off with a biner in the top hole and the guy using them fell and broke his arm in my front yard.This was years ago and he wasnt using a backup.Come to find out the kongs had a defect in them from the factory.

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Kong sucks.
 
Thanks Chip. I really am a pretty good looking guy, though. Some people say model, but....Anyway Ron- I've said all I have to say to you concerning this matter. Jimmy describes professional climbing well in the above paragraph.

Back to the back-up:

I concede that a back-up below the ascender can likely be safe. Thanks Kevin and Holly.

I am now more than convinced that a back-up is ESSENTIAL. In a typical footlock (hands plus prussik) your hands are the primary hold, the prussik is a back-up. I've never had my hands fail, though they could (hence the prussik). I think the thing that bothers me most is that a failing ascender gives no warning, whereas you are likely to feel your hands becoming fatigued. Something about this warning is comforting to me.
 
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I never thought of the hitch being the backup in FL...but I do like the idea of the hands being the primary.



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I told you that a long time ago! Now I feel slighted.
 
Blinky,
I highly respect and admire what the pros do in trees - that's not even an issue.

I'm not trying to match time in a tree with pro-arbos; I'm not trying to match experience in trees with a pro-arbo; I'm not trying to, nor have I ever claimed to know a whole lot about arborist work, nor do I claim to have climbed as much rope.

But there are people with pro experience saying the same thing I am. And, those people are credible, and I quote just two out of many:

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One of many of HÖLLENREICH replies: Cause some dip shot came up with this rule, for tards that can't seem to use gear in a proper way.

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Fairfield:...Well I was able to do that with my Petzl hand ascender (singal)[pop off rope]. Mind you it was all my fault for not having the biener in the top hole on the ascender Thats the only way I have seen it happen or heard of it happening...

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Now let's honestly apply that to what Chris has stated: he openly admits he's having a problem with ascenders coming off the rope; he openly admits he hasn't read the ascender instructions; and he has had every opportunity to state that he did have a biner in the top hole when the ascender has popped off and he has not stated that. So we are left to conclude that he is not using the biner in the top hole. How much experience does one need to know that?

Consider this Blinky, if Chris had been using an ascender with a biner in the top hole, would we even be having this conversation? Not likely - you realize why? He wouldn't have had ascenders popping off the rope and it wouldn't be an issue.

It's just hard to take someone pulling the 'I've got more experience than you card' and turning right around and admitting he's not using gear properly.

Now if he's been using a biner in the top hole and still had the ascender come off, that's a different story and I'd for sure like to hear about that.

Edit:
I meant to add, I apologize for the offensive comments, I know I made some; they were unnecessary and out of line.
 
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You'll like it. FWIW I belive they are the safest one on the market.

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I picked one up about an hour ago - it is impressive, very innovative. Can't wait to give'er a test drive. LOL, everybody ought to live 10 miles from an On Rope store and 10 miles from a Rock Creek store. Well, maybe not, it's gettin' pretty expensive.

I do wonder how it's gonna perform in a RADS setup. What I'm looking at is the extra loading generated by the frame itself. In a RADS, because there a biner in the top hole holding a pulley, downward force on the pulley could counter act some of the frame force.

May not be a problem, but I'll see if anything shows up when I try it out.

I can't right now - we've had so much rain, I'd have to swim to a tree.
 
I can't speak to whether chris is using the ascender with a biner in the lockout hole.

I can say that I started climbing trees with a Jumar and a Pantin, no backups. I did it that way for more than a year when a friend (an arborist) asked if I backed up my ascenders. He pointed out that twigs can cause cams to disengage and that I was stupid... I decided he was right.

The ascender doesn't have to come off the rope to fail and accidents happen, stuff gets screwed up, we take chances that we shouldn't take in moments of stress. Backups are just the smart thing to do. Whether you go above or below the ascender seems academic at this point because we have no documentation of either ACTUALLY failing. I've tried both but my primary footlocking setup is rigged for tautlines above the ascender frames.

If you're using a ropewalker system or something similar, you have built-in redundant connections, usually 3 at least so it seems unnecessary.
 
Blinky,
I whole-heartedly agree with you, especially that we need more than one tie-in - I've even said that repeatedly in this thread.

And yes, ascenders can get something in them and slip, but the other system, whatever it is, will catch you. But that should be exceptions not SOP.

I'm not the least bit concerned about a backup on an ascender, in fact if you go back and read my posts in this thread, you'd conclude I'm over backed up. But what I have been quite concerned about is how an ascender can come off a rope if the ascender is being applied properly.

It seems trite to claim I have all this experience and rope mileage therefore I can do no wrong. And, I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong, I think though some facts have come to light that is indicative however.

Let me see if I can use a different approach to illustrate something. Over the past 12 years, I've had tons and tons of formal handgun instruction. I typically shoot 10,000, that's right 10,000 rounds a year to reinforce all that training. Recently, I was training a friend and he probably hadn't been shooting with me more than three times when he pointed something out that I was doing. I was astonished. Here I was with all this training and experience and a newbie saw an error.

So how should I deal with this? Well, here's how I did: I said, "Wow, I didn't realize I was doing that, thanks for pointing it out, I need to work on that, you keep watching me."

How could I have reacted? Hey you're a novice, what do you know, I've shot more rounds in a week than you have in your life. I've done every kind of drill, I've shot from all kinds of positions, etc., etc., etc.

Would I have still been doing something wrong? You betcha.
 
me and Ron where chatting, a thought of mine why ascenders fail is a simple fact about them. Ascenders are ment and desinged to be used on weighted ropes. In other words a rope that will stay parallel with the cam and frame. When one footlocks, (thinking this is when ascenders fail), there is always a breif moment when the rope goes slack, this is when queer angles can form in the rope and ascender. Keep in mind that others systems like use of foot ascender, waist ascender or hitch, chest ascender, keeps the rope weighted while one pushes the hand ascender up. This in turn keeps the rope and ascender parallel.

A hitch above a hand ascender in a sence does nothing more then force one to put a biner through the top hole and around the rope. This biner in turn does nothing more than make sure the rope stays parallel with the ascender. Though the tightness of the hole leads one to belive it locks the rope in, this is not a fail safe for the cam action, a twig or bark, might or still can force it open and a slip or fall may happen. If you look at the instructions you'll see also that you are asked to EITHER use the top hole or run the tail of rope through the bottom biner, again forcing the rope to stay parallel with the ascender. No matter how you look at it to use an ascender one needs to make sure at all times the ascender stays parallel with the rope.

Not just a pretty face after all, or is it smart arse?
 
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I can't speak to whether chris is using the ascender with a biner in the lockout hole.



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I mis-spoke earlier. Here is my ascender:
http://climbinggearinc.com/cmi-double-handle-expedition-ascender-pi-4726.html

And I did have a biner in the top hole. I don't think it's a lock-out, though.

Now I just use the ascender to push up a 7-up hitch with false crotch on SRT. When I get as high as I want to be, I lock off below the 7-up, and proceed with my DdRT.

I don't tie into the ascender at all.
 
Edit:
I need to re-word that a bit:
I have the single handled version of that very ascender - CMI Expedition. I don't use it much any more because in a RADS that I almost exclusively SRT on, the single hole ascenders can allow the biner used to secure the pulley to depress the cam somewhat or prevent it from moving upward enough to catch securely - that wouldn't be good.

Plus, even with an biner in the top hole, it's much less effective at preventing the ascender from coming off the rope than an ascender the with two holes at the top.
 
I'm sorry guys, I respect that you've seen or experienced an ascender coming off a rope, but from what little has been disclosed about it, am I understanding that it's possible to pull a 1/2" rope between the side of the rope channel and the cam without any damage to the ascender, i.e. the side of the channel isn't sprung? Nothing?

Because, I put an 11mm rope in my CMI Expedition ascender, pulled the rope down against the side of the rope channel and against the cam as hard as I could, and it didn't come close to coming off rope.

One thing I did notice that would certainly cause the problem is the safety on that particular ascender (CMI Expedition). It is a very exposed pull down lever and it would be extremely easy in the heat of climbing, to inadvertently get a thumb in contact with that safety and release it. Then I can see how the ascender could come off.

But, the impression I get, again from very sketchy details, is that it comes off when footlocking when the ascender is advanced. What that says is that one would have to have enough strength in one arm and hand to lift the ascender with such force that it would force a half inch rope between the side of the rope channel and the cam. That's hard to believe after the effort I put into trying that with an 11mm rope. Now if the safety is getting inadvertently released, I can see how an ascender could come off.

So, does anyone actually know the specifics of how and when this is happening? I understand the wild angles in trees and such, but isn't this also happening with just straight footlocking?
 
Ron, it could be that the rope isn't squeezing out but rather the lockout is somehow being defeated or compromised.

That's the problem with twigs, vines and gloves when you're moving fast through all kinds of crap... weird stuff happens, stuff you can't plan for.
 
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Ron, it could be that the rope isn't squeezing out but rather the lockout is somehow being defeated or compromised....

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That's exactly what I'm thinking. Notice my comment in my post just above yours regarding a CMI Expedition and the two handled version as well, about how easy it would be to inadvertently disengage the safety.

That doesn't make the problem go away, but the more we know about the nature of the problem the more we can do to prevent it. And, that particular ascender has a unique safety - quite different than other CMI ascenders and other manufacturers as well. It would be very easy for that ascender to brush by a limb and disengage the safety lever. That in and of itself wouldn't cause the problem, but if the ascender was being advanced it could easily come off the rope and the upward motion of ascending is the exact movement that would disengage the safety.

So how do we deal with that? Make adjustments in our techniques and practices or replace that ascender with one that won't do that.

I am convinced that the problem is the safety disengaging. That could be caused by a design flaw, or a flaw in one's technique. Again, drawing an analogy from the shooting community, when one has a mishap with a firearm, it's always the firearms fault. It's hard for us humans to admit there's a flaw in our techniques, practices, or knowledge that is allowing a problem to occur.
 
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