Ascent line on a spar

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In a real life situation you'd cut them off but those steel core flip lines would be a bugger.


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You've hit on an important subject Ekka.
That's why no one should be using - 'a steel core flipline direct to grillon or similar without there being a a small piece of webbing/prussik loop or similar between the grillon and the carabiner that attaches to your d ring - so the rescuer can cut through it.
 
The techniques I use and teach were discussed in the steel core lanyard thread Mangoes. Similar to Mark Chisholms technique described in his article.

In the UK, you are required to tie in with lanyard and lifeline on a pole. No particular dogma as to how. I find it wise and helpful to choke my lifeline. Just consider that an old single braid rope and a factor 2 fall if positioned too low could cause it to fail (from tests conducted in the prusik research on single line drop tests).
 
[/ QUOTE ]is it true that you guys only got organised with your chainsaw certification and training scheme after about 10 guys died using chainsaws clearing up storm damage after your big hurricane in 88?


just curious as to the nature of the uk's almost machine like stance on arb safety - i've seen the booklet(guide to good climbing practice) your Arb Association published after your new euro work at height regs appeared -
Are there any companies in the uk actually using 2 climbing lines in the tree at ALL TIMES like it suggests?
which would mean getting into the tree with 3 ropes.
Are you?
Why didn't they just ban climbing from a rope and harness?

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First I've heard about the storm and training, but it likely had a little to do with it; tree work standards have been taught on diploma courses long before the storm. I do know that in the first week following that storm of 87, there were 1000 recorded chainsaw accidents, not specific to pros, that probably highlighted the need for specific certification and PPE.


RE: the UK training system - There s quite a lot to discuss for this medium. You'll get the jist of my stance from these articles:

http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article5.html

http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article8.html
 
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I didn't say laz2 was the antichrist!
but I wouldn't be the slightest little bit surprised if it turned out he was.
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There is lots of great talk going on here, and a couple of friendly jabs too :)

Would anyone feel compelled to enforce the practice of having an ascent line ALWAYS attached to the tree once it is just a spar? When would an exception be made to the requirement of an ascent line being set?
 
For my part Tom, I always teach that a lanyard and lifeline are ALWAYS used on a pole. I also recommend the lifeline be choked.

I would only recommend an ADDITIONAL access line be set if the rescue climber was inexperienced in much use pole climbing with spurs, and/or if it is a difficult climb (lean, S bends, bulges etc.). Even then, a throwline can be set over stubs instead.

Additional access line is the exception, not the rule.
 
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Would anyone feel compelled to enforce the practice of having an ascent line ALWAYS attached to the tree once it is just a spar? When would an exception be made to the requirement of an ascent line being set?

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As a guy who cuts truck loads of poles everyday I would be in the anti mob.

Also when doing palm TD's I generally take 2 lanyards, one is choked. I dont want ropes around the trunk, my feet or in the bombing zone.

Yes you can argue that if something happened I'm stuck up there, but no more stuck than trying to decend on SRT with a jammed prussik.
 
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Yes you can argue that if something happened I'm stuck up there, but no more stuck than trying to decend on SRT with a jammed prussik.

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Options (in order of my preference)
1. Rope Guide or RG knock off
2. Adjustable Friction Saver
3. Choked Line with an anti-panick enabled Descent device (i'd)
 
I use my climbing line choked around the spar with a figure 8 below a Vt. My Butterfly saddle has delta links on the leg straps and they make a good tie point for the eight as they are about 12 inches lower than where the Vt contacts the rope.

I'm shortly going to be switching over to the system Mark Adams has been showing.
 
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Would anyone feel compelled to enforce the practice of having an ascent line ALWAYS attached to the tree once it is just a spar? When would an exception be made to the requirement of an ascent line being set?

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Where are you going to put it? on the side of the tree you are on? on the side you are blocking wood down? either way does not make sence.... I have done a pole rescue, and if you had to climb up directly underneath the victim, that would not be cool, also if you put the line on the other side, there is a very good chance that the line would be damaged.

It is no faster to do a rescue(on a pole) with a single ascent line attached than without. either way you are going to be strapping your spikes on, so there is not going to be any F/Ling.... that would take to long to change over to spikes in the tree. and single line there is no way for the ground guys to help your ascent.

Bottom line, it's a bad idea.... you could create a false sence of securty for the climber, at the same time complicate his rescue! stick to monthly training of rescue situations, and include Pole rescue.

Rob

p.s. in most situations, the accident that caused the A/R would have damaged the "rescue line" ie: peeling, baber chair, ect.
 
I have to disagree Eric. Just imagine trying to climb down if you were to cut one arm badly or even just get dizzy from the heat or whatever else. It would be much quicker and more successful for you to just unclip a lanyard and rappel.
 
Rope = Self rescue, I don't leave the ground without one. But I also don't take down palm trees. If I'm worried about bombing stuff on it, I bag it up and clip it to my harness, simple as that. Adjustable cambium saver on spars always gives me a way out.
 
Rob,

I don't think that having an ascent line is a 'bad' idea out of hand. Sure, there are working conditions where it could be cumbersome, get in the way or be damaged. There are also conditions where having a ascent line installed could make the day. For every 'bad' scenario there's a solution.

Laz has already brought up a couple of scenarios. A curving or bulging trunk...with little thinking others could be imagined.

The reason that I started this thread was to 'fish out' some other thoughts. A lot of really good ideas have been shared.

Taking time to think through protocols is important. In some companies climbers are required to have an ascent line installed while they're in the tree. That's great...until all that's left is a spar. Then what??? Gig the climber because they didn't have one below them as they worked the spar down? No...come up with a reasonable solution that doesn't compromise safety or the intention of having a 'back door' rescue plan.

Too often rules are set in place without thinking through the repercussions. We're all required to wear safety glasses all of the time. Everyone has had a day when the glasses were fogging up so bad that we thought that it was more dangerous to not see than risk eye injury. Taking off the glasses is not an option and OSHA or whatever safety umbrella you work under, will see it differently and gig you. Putting a rule in place that states that an ascent line must be in the tree at all times without considering the consequences could make for a bad rule.
 
True, true, But i think that you missed the point, setting a seperate line i think is a bad idea... just more hardware and software to get in the way, and not much of a help for a rescue, but i always have my own climbing line choked(or ropeguide) when i am working on a sparr.... if you climb up to rescue me, Don't use my line!!!! bring up your own
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If your rigging down a spar.......and you need rescued, what's wrong with clipping into the end of the lowering rope and letting the groundies lower you using the portawrap?
 
Axe,

With some conditions that might be a viable rescue scenario.

Something that is hardly ever discussed in AR chatter is preparing the victim for transport. As arbos we always think that getting the victim to the ground is the best plan. If high angle rescue folks are brought into the discussion they'll generally prep for transport by neck bracing and possibly back boarding first. ALWAYS do a proper assessment and triage before transport.
 
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