ANSI Rules

[Tom Dunlap]

Thanks Tim,

This is the section I was thinking about:

This standard may require situational modifications in response to personnel emergencies and is not intended to limit the options available to emergency responders.

It would be the responsibility of the employer to define 'emergency'

 

[theXman]

There are always going to be scenarios that we are in that following the rules by the book may get us hurt or killed or they are plain ridiculous.

Every dang rule should have an exception that says something like, if the individual has good reason not to follow this rule for their own or others saftey, then that action should be taken.

I don't keep up with all these dang changing rules. So you're tellin me that one handed saw use is "forbidden"? I'm I understanding your posts right? Stupid, stupid, stupid.

I've been in plenty of situations that attaching to the tree I was working on would be dangerous. One comes to mind, when I was a beginning climber, I was topping out some big oaks for a logger, so the trees could be felled in the right direction and also to remove some tops that would break up the logs. Anyway I was tied in up top with my climbing line, and was out on a large diameter limb (lower in the crown), I bottom cut the limb and proceeded to cut down from the top, well the limb was so heavy that it went pre-maturely, splitting the limb down the middle. And guess what? I had the lanyard on around the limb. The splitting limb yanked me against the limb as it continued to peal apart. I thought fast reving my saw and cutting my lanyard before harm happened to me. Now a-days with experience I would never have put my lanyard around that limb and I may bore in on a large diameter limb with all that weight if I didn't want it to split.

Other scenarios that come to mind that I've been in are storm damaged trees that are at the point of falling more or sliding off the other tree or structure that is holding them up.

Another is when there's a really really hollow tree that has to be pieced out. Where I'm tied into a nearby tree or maybe hanging from a "traverse" line between two good trees. And while peicing out the hollow unstable tree, I would never want to be joined to that tree with a lanyard or other rope.

There are tons of scenarios where one-handed use on a "climbing" saw should be used. I talked about this months ago I think. I'm not going to go into them again.

Too many times these committees make up rules with members that no longer actually do this work and have lost reality, or never really did much of this work. Actually, I don't really know any names on these committees, but I'm just guessing that must be the case; hearing about the rules they make up.

Thank you Mark and your family for trying to keep it real. It sounds like you all get involved with this stuff a bit, and that's good.

Is hanging from a crane ball still legal? Or did that go away too? /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Lazarus2]

I agree with Mark and Mahk.

In the UK, we have regulations for thinking about making regulations. Some would put us at risk if we followed them to the letter.

Fortunately, we also have a requirement to undertake in depth, task specific written risk assessments, safety policy and codes of practice. This is a saving grace in many respects; the employer can show s/he has considered the risks and justify their own controls. They have to be reasonable. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - if your risk assessments are accurate and controls implementd, no serious accidents should occurr. If they do, something wasn't working and thats when the power of regulation starts to get felt!

Regardless, I no longer lose sleep over this. I run a tight ship and only employ those with the experience, qualities and abilities that don't lead to concern bout them acting like muppets.

On site safety rests with those at the sharp end - are we really going to put ourselves in danger because some mis-guided pen pusher has lost touch with the dangers of reality ? I think not. That DOESNT mean doing what the hell we like!

Guidelines, standards, regs....they're all there to protect the inexperienced. Which is why I support much of it, but I don't allow the dogma prevent a pragmatic approach when its needed, which is probably why i'm still alive !

We have a crazy situation here where the complex skills and decisions made to undertake dangerous tasks, are trying to be quantified and judged in an academic manner. Focus has been lost. Its just not possible to regulate every eventuality. Hopefully the judge would see it the same way too! /forum/images/graemlins/popez.gif

 

[Tom Dunlap]

"Too many times these committees make up rules with members that no longer actually do this work and have lost reality, or never really did much of this work. Actually, I don't really know any names on these committees, but I'm just guessing that must be the case; hearing about the rules they make up."

If you look in the front pages of any of the ANSI standards you'll see the names of the people on the committees. In the case of the Z committee there are many people who still spend time on the sharp end of a rope. For many years I've attended the Z meetings as an alternate or voting member representing the defunct Student Society of Arborculture. In addition, I attended as an observer to take part in the discussion too. At the meeting in October my membership as an independant voting member will be voted on. So far, no one has ever not been voted onto the Z committee...maybe I'll be the first

There was lots of discussion about one-handed chain saw use. When the motion came to a vote it had to be voted on more than once...what a mess. In the end, it was voted to not allow one-handed since there is an 'out' written into the Z already.

If the rest of the arbo world operated like the posters in this thread there wouldn't have to be a citation in the Z against one-handing. The intention is to reduce the amount of one-handing and make sure that climbers think about safer options.