American Society of Consulting Arborist

"without considering those who cross disciplines"

sorry blinks, the reason i missed that is because it is a false premise. tree care is one discipline; the more you try to split us apart the more you will find that does not work. We are together if we only realize it.

Only at the extremes--tree cutters who do not study their craft, and handsoff guys who choose to stay that way--is there no hybridization (and therefore much weakness). 90% of us both study and practice, and are arborists.

Your image of arborist as necessarily climbing and cutting on a regular basis is as you say wrong. mrtree is right--let's see the whole tree and work with the whole tree.

jp which half?
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Great discussion guys, very enlightening.

From Blinky (I think);
OK, so maybe the better analogy is that 'Arborist' is like 'Doctor' and then you divy that up by specialization. Come to think of it, that makes sense. But it would be interesting to survey lay people on what they think an arborist does.

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Hope you folks don't mind and view from a arbor newbie/ lay person. I think an unjaded opinion can't hurt.

I like the physician/arborist analogy here where implying a 'specialty' can and does make a perceived difference regarding one's skill set and brings to mind another certification concept from a completely different field; the auto repair industry. No, I'm not trying to derail things here, I just find it interesting to see such similar issues with regard to certifications and skill set definitions. As an ASE certified automotive technician, I have chosen to 'specialize' in a particular area and have thus studied/tested and received supplemental 'specialist' certifications under the main, or general, ASE certification banner. Furthermore, if I choose, I can add to my list of specialty certs. by pursuing numerous other ares of study. But most importantly, I can take on a very intense, highly technical focus and earn a 'Master Technician' certification, which would basically put me at the top of the field from a certification standpoint. The important thing to take from this ASE rambling is that their is a DRAMATIC difference between the entry level or general ASE certification and that of a Master Technician. From experience, I can say that one could easily obtain the 'book smarts' to obtain the basic ASE certification (without ever touching a wrench) but would not be able to achieve some of the more specialized certifications without a significant level of knowledge gained only through hands-on experience. Does this make sense?

So, do you guys think that the world of Arbor related certification (ISA?) should offer more intense 'specialty' certifications (beyond consulting) to help in defining one's knowledge base or skill set? Yes, this would probably mean more time and $$ spent, but I, for one, feel that many of you on this forum certainly deserve to be separated from the general field of tree workers or arborists, and if for nothing else, to show your prospective clients that you have taken another step and PROVEN yourself in a certain, highly technical specialty in the world of tree care.
 
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[...] tree care is one discipline; the more you try to split us apart the more you will find that does not work. We are together if we only realize it.

[...]

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's trying to split us apart? We all depend on each other... that doesn't make us all the same.

I'm talking terms used for discussion, not exclusion. There are lots of arborists who don't climb at all and lots of arborists who climb every day and never write the first report.

In the future, as customers become better educated about tree care, how will they know who to call for a given problem? You don't call a removal expert for an inventory... you don't call a biologist for a pruning.

I don't get the resistance to clarifying something that's a bit mucky.
 
I agree, it seems that this concept of clarification would help considerably when customers are attempting to choose a service provider. I think in a way it provides a little education in that it helps the customer or lay person understand that there are significant differences in professional tree care skills. Wouldn't this concept help sell your bid that may be considerable higher than the quotes from the 'two guys in a truck' operations that claim they are tree 'doctors'?

In other words, as a customer, I would certainly attempt to find a specialist whenever possible, (consulting/pruning/removals etc..)not meaning I would know the difference between the various certification standards, but at least I could maybe weed out some of the 'hacks'.
 
Just curious, are we talking specialized arborists or specialized companies. If you are advertising your campany as specialized in something you run into a lot of danger of people passing you up. For instance you specialize in pruning, and they have a removal so they call someone else, even though you would have no problem with it. Where if you are specializing with in a company you would be much safer knowing there is other work to be doing if even if what you are specializing in isn't nesicarily filling the time.
With that, specialized certifications probally don't mean much other than with in a company. General public probally doesn't even know what ISA is, let alone why/if it is better if their arborist is certified by them. Tree work is different than a lot of other things, most people don't realize what is best for the tree or what they are really paying for. They would be more angery that you left a few sticks on the ground, than they would be if you left desiesed branches or large stubs. How can you expect them to understand specializations.
 
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specialized certifications probally don't mean much other than with in a company. General public probally doesn't even know what ISA is, let alone why/if it is better if their arborist is certified by them. Tree work is different than a lot of other things, most people don't realize what is best for the tree or what they are really paying for.

[/ QUOTE ]Man I hate to hear my home state of WI portrayed as a bunch of cheeseating arbordunces. You must live in the boonies. In my market, people seek out arborists and google tree info like crazy.
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I have dozens of CA's within a 30-mile radius, so my BCMA separates me out as a proven consulting specialist.

I specialize in that for several reasons, but then I'm a one-old-man company so if I get skipped over for removals I am grateful.
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Grover,

Refering to your trivia comment on Page 2 of this discussion. In reference to a prison term that you say was served by K. Matthek.

Apparently the USA didn't take it as seriously as you appear to, since they allow him a US Visa to visit and lecture. That's not available to visiting internationals with "recognized" felony crimes.

Furthermore, what is your source of this information?

Even so, assuming your statement to be accurate:
Gallileo was imprisoned, and wrote his most noteable works incarcerated, smuggling out the documents.
Nelson Mandela was also a political prisoner.

If you open up a can of worms, be ready to deal with the stench as the heat picks up.

The list goes on and on.
Imprisonment of scientists in communist block countries is something that has happened frequently.

I don't know the conditions of this scenario you have presented, do you know? Are you able to back it up? Is it really any of your business?

So, as a courtesy to Klaus, I sent him an email and we can see if he has the time or interest to comment on your statement.
That is only fair.

I think it is highly unprofessional to make incomplete statements against professionals or anyone for that matter.

I don't know who you are. Maybe you can identify yourself. Lets start with that.
Who is Grover?
 
fastil1, you make a good point in stating that many people don't know (or care) about ISA or any other certification status but that's sort of the problem I'm discussing...

This goes for any certification for any industry. In this case I'm discussing arborist specialization and/or business specialization; if your potential customer is not aware of the importance of special skills needed to do special jobs (safely AND cost effectively) they will probably assume any person or business that advertises as a 'tree service' is fully capable of doing what they need. Read this as meaning 'hiring a hack' rather than recognizing special skill sets and ASKING for them. I understand this all may seem silly, especially coming from a newbie, but I think it is critical for the best in this biz to attempt to separate themselves from the hackers in as many ways possible. Simply having arborist certification(s) may indeed be meaningless to many people but as guymayor said, A LOT of people do their homework online, long before they pick up the phone book ( big jobs/small jobs/looking to save $$/special work etc...).
I for one, haven't looked in the yellow pages for anything for quite some time.

To all, please keep in mind I'm just trying to post a view from the outside, and I'm in NO WAY trying to tell any pro aroborist or business how to do their thing. I think I'm more concerned that all too often the pros who try to do it right and spend huge time & $$$ doing so are simply 'lumped together' with the butchers in the customer's mind.
 
Stupsi the hedgehog's book is not carried anymore at ISA, but they are still selling Fungal Strategies, which has some Stupsi pictures in it.

Ir you think Body Language of Trees bent your brain, try that one!
 
I use a predecessor to that which Matthek co-authored with a world-renowned mycology expert. I will check this one out also. That's a wide open field. Lots to gain there.
 
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I use a predecessor to that which Matthek co-authored with a world-renowned mycology expert. I will check this one out also. That's a wide open field. Lots to gain there.

[/ QUOTE ]You mean Schwarze? Klaus only had very little to do with Fungal Strategies, as he acknowledges. I respect his work with biomechanics, but his points lose validity the more strenuously they ar eargued for.

A little humility would go a long way for him, and Germans in general. PS I am 1/2 Kraut.
 
I hear yea about tryin to seperate out the good arborists from the hacks, and obviously some people do. If none of them did, why would they pay the extra for the good companies that keep most of us in bussiness. Also, yes I am from the boonies of Wi. Most people around me aren't worried about a tree unless it is on a fence or on a house. They have another 100 acres of them if one dies, so why pay extra to keep one healthy. Although on that note, I am working in the Chicago area, and most the people I deal with are quite tree illiterate. Not their fault, h*ll I am probally completely illiterate in whatever their job may be as well. Workin for a big company, so it goes back to what I was saying before, we have specialization with-in our company. The people basicaly hire us for total tree care. They expect us to tell them what needs to be done (obviously not all of them, but you get my point).
If in a smaller private company, I guess it would be pretty difficult to explain to a client why you would be best because of a certificate.
Also, for being a cunsulting arborist, I would imagine a good name in tree care and a good client base would almost mean more than a certificate of some sort. But that is just my 2 cents.
One more quick note, Knotsmart, even though your new, a lot of people still like seeing your opinion, don't worry about insulting us. I'm fairly new myself.
 
fastil1,
Good point(s). A few things I had not thoroughly considered were property size and business size, makes good sense.

Thanks for the kind words. It's awesome to be able to share thoughts with people on so many different levels of this profession without getting my head torn off (so far!).

Wishing you all the best of luck and please, be safe!
 
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