Almost Terrible Mishap
- Thread starter Steve Connally
- Start date
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
The also told me there was a lady in the street in a car that had stopped to watch. She hauled ass when it was heading her way. No job site safety ever. Customers walk under me all the time an nobody stops them. They always get an earful from me after that. One day I had enough and lost my cool. Balled out the whole crew at once and didn't hold back. You coulda heard a cricket fart cause I'm usually pretty level headed
Daniel
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Suburban Philadelphia (Wayne)
bad news and more bad news... its mathematical.. you only get so many little screw ups, mistakes and close calls, until something major goes wrong... then only so many major incidents until there is a serious injury or fatality... what safety rules do they violate.. lots of PPE issues no doubt.. the idea of using a tree as a redirect adding friction to the system is SO BAD ... only thing worse is that no one is addressing it.
I feel for you... wouldn;t want anything to do with that company , but you do what you have to do... don't turn your back on those guys... they're gonna kill someone..
I feel for you... wouldn;t want anything to do with that company , but you do what you have to do... don't turn your back on those guys... they're gonna kill someone..
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
The bigger problem is you're heading down the rabbit hole with them. Step back and really, really assess your principles in all of this. You stated, "But I'm a zero margin for error guy so even though today was a success it was still a failure in my eyes because I pride myself on being safe. I failed today." That the company fails everyday and you're there on the job is a compromise of your principles. That the crew you're working with are putting you in a position of causing damage to property and worse yet, lives is a wake up call to that fact.
Essentially by rationalizing your inaction due to the great money is saying you have a price for your principles. Sure you yelled at the guys but, did that change anything? This guy is just running roughshod over everyone and everything while all of you stand there and accept it because "the money's good" or "afraid of losing their jobs".
Steve, he's acknowledging the better quality of your work and gear tacitly. Time to hold his feet to the fire. Take a principled stand, tell him you will run your own crew your way without any interference from him or others. He gives you the work orders and then leaves. You will get the jobs done as you see fit and in your own manner, safely and, for him, profitably. Nobody on your crew works without proper PPE, etc... But, here's the tough part, you must be prepared to walk away if he refuses (You can't win at negotiating if you can't get up from the table). I suspect that he'll go along, maybe not right away.
Daniel, you know that in our industry there is no formal training for most just on the job learning which leaves us vulnerable to the perpetuation of bad, uninformed practices. It's difficult enough that even when following all the BMPs we can be victim to mental lapses (speaking from experience!). There is also that frustrating male ego macho big dick swinging that seems to stop all rational thought. When the shit hits the fan and it eventually will, either for him or someone who learned under him, somebody pays dearly. This is where I would love to see a sharp lawyer come in and slap everyone down the line with a lawsuit. All the way back to the person who trained the bad practices in the beginning.
I better get off the soapbox now......
Essentially by rationalizing your inaction due to the great money is saying you have a price for your principles. Sure you yelled at the guys but, did that change anything? This guy is just running roughshod over everyone and everything while all of you stand there and accept it because "the money's good" or "afraid of losing their jobs".
Steve, he's acknowledging the better quality of your work and gear tacitly. Time to hold his feet to the fire. Take a principled stand, tell him you will run your own crew your way without any interference from him or others. He gives you the work orders and then leaves. You will get the jobs done as you see fit and in your own manner, safely and, for him, profitably. Nobody on your crew works without proper PPE, etc... But, here's the tough part, you must be prepared to walk away if he refuses (You can't win at negotiating if you can't get up from the table). I suspect that he'll go along, maybe not right away.
Daniel, you know that in our industry there is no formal training for most just on the job learning which leaves us vulnerable to the perpetuation of bad, uninformed practices. It's difficult enough that even when following all the BMPs we can be victim to mental lapses (speaking from experience!). There is also that frustrating male ego macho big dick swinging that seems to stop all rational thought. When the shit hits the fan and it eventually will, either for him or someone who learned under him, somebody pays dearly. This is where I would love to see a sharp lawyer come in and slap everyone down the line with a lawsuit. All the way back to the person who trained the bad practices in the beginning.
I better get off the soapbox now......
Nish
Branched out member
- Location
- North Carolina
Do we really want more legal involvement? Steve's boss got his due. Imagine showing up to that headache on a Monday, then walking over to the stump and seeing that inexplicable cut made by your own climber. Try to legislate this sort of mishap out of existence and everyone, save the lawyers and the largest tree care companies, pays dearly. Let rather the hacks have their chainsaws. They will learn, they be ruined, or they will continue to educate the public and advertise for the real pros.
Last edited:
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
Treehumper, I totally hear you. I really do. I think about this often. I guess I table my inner discussion pending further thought. It's wrong I know. I don't have anything to say because you're rite.
Magnum783
Participating member
- Location
- Cheyenne WY
I am in the same boat Steve, if you are starting a club save me a seat. Only diff is I am a contract climber and have walked once. I still continue to work for him but when it gets to be a difficult rigging job I bring in my own ground guy or DEMAND the 1 guy I trust that works for him. Also I use all my own gear and bill accordingly. Just my way of handling the situation.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
We will have more legal involvement when there is more fatalities. It's a matter of time before it happens. Let me be more explicit, Steve's boss got away lucky with that headache. Yeah, it sucks but obviously not enough for this guy to change his way of operating or for clients to desert him in droves. Imagine the headache or more, the heartache if that women had been crushed in her car or a passerby walking under Steve was seriously injured because his crew let them pass without warning him.
I do use hack work and DIY accidents as a means to illustrate the point of using professionals. What I don't want to see is more regs based on more accidents and bad practices.
Stihlmadd
Been here a while
- Location
- Adelaide South Australia
Steve run it like a business - profit or losses who is your principal share holder and will they be satisfied with your choices in the short or long term.
that scenario of the base anchor failing on the friction device happened over here years ago , the climber hadn't installed a midpoint redirect into the lowering system and the portawrap scored him at high speed right in the melon.
two years after the accident he could walk and talk again but as to working - not going to happen and you know better than us laymen the stats on accident recovery time versus costs involved.
you may be payed as an employee but you are def a subcontractor
what treehumper says is bang on confront this shady 'Bossman' and lay it down like the professional arsehole you can be..
don't you think its time?
that scenario of the base anchor failing on the friction device happened over here years ago , the climber hadn't installed a midpoint redirect into the lowering system and the portawrap scored him at high speed right in the melon.
two years after the accident he could walk and talk again but as to working - not going to happen and you know better than us laymen the stats on accident recovery time versus costs involved.
you may be payed as an employee but you are def a subcontractor
what treehumper says is bang on confront this shady 'Bossman' and lay it down like the professional arsehole you can be..
don't you think its time?
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
Thanks for the motivation guys. Sent this his morning
Xxx,
I'd much rather have this conversation face to face but both of us are busy and have schedules that usually don't match up.
I've been thinking about several of these issues for quite a long time and the mishap Thursday motivated me to share my opinion of how things are going and how much of a daily risk you face as the owner and may not even know it.
On Thursday I was taking down the trunk sections of the oak with the bucket. Thankfully I was in the bucket and not climbing. I had switched out my primary rigging line to my big line and was using blocks and slings that belong to me. Xxx was roping with your port a wrap witch was tied off with an old piece of rigging rope. I took a piece that I estimate to be 1500 to 1800 pounds. The rope the port a wrap was tied off with snapped and the porty ran up the tree and stopped when it hit my pulled and locked up. The wood smashed the landscape timbers and damaged the lawn. That could have been a catastrophic incident. Had something of major value been below the tree it would be crushed. If someone was below the wood they would be dead. If Dan hadn't let go of the rope it would have sucked him into the trunk and the piece would have landed on him killing him. Had that port a wrap hit me in the face I'd be dead or badly injured. Had I been climbing, the velocity of the porty coming up could have severed my lines or hit me in the leg, more potential loss and liability for you.
The rigging equipment needs to be updated. A rated sling of some sort for the porty is essential. One of your blocks is rusted and the other looks like it's been run over. I had sold you those slings for your blocks and no one knows where they are and last I saw them, they were soaked with oil and water. There are only 2 serviceable lines that belong to you. One you just bought. The other I gave you. The one you just bought will not last long because Bj natural crotches everything instead of using blocks. He burns that rope over and over every day.
I bring my own gear because I am not willing to be held liable for failure of equipment. It's a self preservation thing. If I have to pay for damaged property, I may as well not come to work. So I buy thousands of dollars of my own gear to use at XXXX xxxxx . It gets used and eventually has to be replaced and I do that at my own cost. I have only asked for a replacement when one of your guys was careless with my gear.
The mishap on Thursday was in part my fault. I should have used 100% of my gear knowing the condition of the port a wrap sling. It never should have been used. Having said that, it should have never been on the truck in that condition. It should have been retired long ago. I will now only use my gear all the time, no exceptions.
The attitude of safety is absent on the job sites. Relaxed PPE use is a generous statement. Occasional helmets. People careless in the drop zone and even customers allowed to walk under a climber while cutting. Lack of attention to detail pertaining to safety is a hazard. The foreman does not have an understanding of basic tenants of tree work. He doesn't know when to stop something going on when it's unsafe. He doesn't understand the potential catastrophic results of what's taking place. I can look at every recent event and the evidence is clear as to why these accidents happened and what lead up to the decisions.
I'm sharing this with you because when a major work place fatality, injury, or property loss happens, and it will eventually if this continues, the liability will fall on you. When all the puzzle pieces come together you will be culpable and responsible. All the case law points to the buck stopping with the owner. You are just one decision away from loosing everything you have worked so hard for including your freedom. I'm not blowing this out of proportion. I watch it every day I'm there and if you only could see how close an incident comes, and really let the ramifications set in, you'd be petrified with concern.
The saw situation and the tools to do basic tree work need to be addressed. The care of your equipment by your employees needs to be addressed. Most of these guys could care less about the tools you provide or their proper use. There is a near total lack of care for the company property and no one puts a stop to it. No wonder the condition of some things are in such disrepair. It wasn't that way when you bought it so it had to happen on the job site.
I feel I need to let you know about these things for several reasons. If I'm on the job site when something happens, I'll be part of the investigation and I cannot afford the ramifications or the damage to my reputation, ability to work. You need to know because of the risk you face. As an employee of yours, I feel I have a duty to let you know what's going on.
I hope to appeal to you to take a long hard look at the operations day to day and the gear being used. You are at risk, not to mention the guys on the job. Use a small amount of your loan to bring the soft goods and saws up to safe operating condition and insist they be used properly and like it was their own.
I am happy to help in any way I can. I try to influence safety as much as possible but I am just a guy at the job like the rest of them. I can only do so much.
I hope you don't take offense to this. I hope you read it several times and let it sink in for what it really is. A call for help, a warning, and someone who works for you trying to protect you from liability and your employees from harm.
Thanks for reading,
Steve
--
Steve Connally
Certified Arborist
757-560-6944
Xxx,
I'd much rather have this conversation face to face but both of us are busy and have schedules that usually don't match up.
I've been thinking about several of these issues for quite a long time and the mishap Thursday motivated me to share my opinion of how things are going and how much of a daily risk you face as the owner and may not even know it.
On Thursday I was taking down the trunk sections of the oak with the bucket. Thankfully I was in the bucket and not climbing. I had switched out my primary rigging line to my big line and was using blocks and slings that belong to me. Xxx was roping with your port a wrap witch was tied off with an old piece of rigging rope. I took a piece that I estimate to be 1500 to 1800 pounds. The rope the port a wrap was tied off with snapped and the porty ran up the tree and stopped when it hit my pulled and locked up. The wood smashed the landscape timbers and damaged the lawn. That could have been a catastrophic incident. Had something of major value been below the tree it would be crushed. If someone was below the wood they would be dead. If Dan hadn't let go of the rope it would have sucked him into the trunk and the piece would have landed on him killing him. Had that port a wrap hit me in the face I'd be dead or badly injured. Had I been climbing, the velocity of the porty coming up could have severed my lines or hit me in the leg, more potential loss and liability for you.
The rigging equipment needs to be updated. A rated sling of some sort for the porty is essential. One of your blocks is rusted and the other looks like it's been run over. I had sold you those slings for your blocks and no one knows where they are and last I saw them, they were soaked with oil and water. There are only 2 serviceable lines that belong to you. One you just bought. The other I gave you. The one you just bought will not last long because Bj natural crotches everything instead of using blocks. He burns that rope over and over every day.
I bring my own gear because I am not willing to be held liable for failure of equipment. It's a self preservation thing. If I have to pay for damaged property, I may as well not come to work. So I buy thousands of dollars of my own gear to use at XXXX xxxxx . It gets used and eventually has to be replaced and I do that at my own cost. I have only asked for a replacement when one of your guys was careless with my gear.
The mishap on Thursday was in part my fault. I should have used 100% of my gear knowing the condition of the port a wrap sling. It never should have been used. Having said that, it should have never been on the truck in that condition. It should have been retired long ago. I will now only use my gear all the time, no exceptions.
The attitude of safety is absent on the job sites. Relaxed PPE use is a generous statement. Occasional helmets. People careless in the drop zone and even customers allowed to walk under a climber while cutting. Lack of attention to detail pertaining to safety is a hazard. The foreman does not have an understanding of basic tenants of tree work. He doesn't know when to stop something going on when it's unsafe. He doesn't understand the potential catastrophic results of what's taking place. I can look at every recent event and the evidence is clear as to why these accidents happened and what lead up to the decisions.
I'm sharing this with you because when a major work place fatality, injury, or property loss happens, and it will eventually if this continues, the liability will fall on you. When all the puzzle pieces come together you will be culpable and responsible. All the case law points to the buck stopping with the owner. You are just one decision away from loosing everything you have worked so hard for including your freedom. I'm not blowing this out of proportion. I watch it every day I'm there and if you only could see how close an incident comes, and really let the ramifications set in, you'd be petrified with concern.
The saw situation and the tools to do basic tree work need to be addressed. The care of your equipment by your employees needs to be addressed. Most of these guys could care less about the tools you provide or their proper use. There is a near total lack of care for the company property and no one puts a stop to it. No wonder the condition of some things are in such disrepair. It wasn't that way when you bought it so it had to happen on the job site.
I feel I need to let you know about these things for several reasons. If I'm on the job site when something happens, I'll be part of the investigation and I cannot afford the ramifications or the damage to my reputation, ability to work. You need to know because of the risk you face. As an employee of yours, I feel I have a duty to let you know what's going on.
I hope to appeal to you to take a long hard look at the operations day to day and the gear being used. You are at risk, not to mention the guys on the job. Use a small amount of your loan to bring the soft goods and saws up to safe operating condition and insist they be used properly and like it was their own.
I am happy to help in any way I can. I try to influence safety as much as possible but I am just a guy at the job like the rest of them. I can only do so much.
I hope you don't take offense to this. I hope you read it several times and let it sink in for what it really is. A call for help, a warning, and someone who works for you trying to protect you from liability and your employees from harm.
Thanks for reading,
Steve
--
Steve Connally
Certified Arborist
757-560-6944
monkeylove
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Roslyn, Pa.
Nicely written Steve, I think your point is well stated and not offensive. As a company owner he should treat that letter like gold, if not then you know he is not the guy for you in the future and it is time to start looking again. Good luck getting him to turn this neglect around.
Stihlmadd
Been here a while
- Location
- Adelaide South Australia
X 2 Steve , my due respect for handling the dilemma like a gentleman and a professional.
I have walked from companies for a lot less than that.
I didn't solve jack or shit.
I have walked from companies for a lot less than that.
I didn't solve jack or shit.
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
Well I got a phone call a text and an email. That went great. Was told I could spend up to 2k to bring gear up to speed. 2 guys have been fired as of Friday and he asked me to please help him get up to par. I'm happy as a clam. I didn't think it would go over this well!! Hanks for the push guys. This needed to happen. Now treestuff is gonna get emptied out. Only thing better about this is it's not my money.
Nah, TreeStuff won't get emptied out on just $2K. I've been there, I know. Great move for you steve? Does this guy have a written employee policy? IMO that is the first place to start as far as the employee issues are concerned. Concrete policy in writing and signed off by each employee. This should cover all aspects of employment and define the levels of discipline up to termination. Also should be reviewed annually, at least for a while t kinks vet worked out. Best of luck there. Stay safe.
Steve Connally
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Suffolk, Virginia
Yeah when you order a 600' spool of 3/4 line and an arbortrolley it doesn't go far but this is a huge victory. A great step in the rite direction. Bought all no frills stuff. No rings. He's not there yet. Lol as far as the employee policy, I doubt it. Unless I write it it's not gonna happen and I get paid to climb not run the show. If someone has something I can plagiarize I'd love to see it. Maybe he'd use it. I can't thank you all enough for the boot in the arse. Now I've gotta get these other guys onboard. Coworkers I mean.
Maybe you could hold the employee document a while after the salvo he just got from you, but as you stated to him, HE is ultimately responsible for his employees and their conduct on the job. Just remember, if it isn't written down, it never happened. All the best.
TimBr
Official Well Known Greeter
- Location
- Northern Virginia
Steve, I'm speaking from a position of ignorance, here, not being a pro arb, and not knowing how your work dynamics happen. In my humble opinion, however, you might be in a much more powerful position than you realize. If you are the only climber who cares about the safety of the crew, I would think that the guys working under you might prefer working for you over another climber who nearly kills them every chance he gets.
So, it seems to me that if your boss will allow you to pick your crew, rather than force a crew onto you, that puts you in a position to hire and fire from your crew, if not the entire company. If you have the decision making power over who gets to work with you, it also puts you in a position to establish safety standards that are higher than what might exist on other crews. Follow my standards, or work for another crew, that is the choice you'd be giving to the subordinate members of the crew. You are the ramrod that makes their jobs possible.
I'd rather wear my safety gear and work for you, than to be free not to, but forced to work for a guy who does not care if I get injured or killed. The constant wearing of PPE is something that people can get used to. If they have an objection to wearing some piece of gear, listen to the objection and try to come up with a way that makes it easier to follow the policy. Availability is a big part of the issue. Hearing protection that is kept in a small container with a tether to a hard hat is one way of ensuring that everyone has the hearing protection they need available whenever they need it, assuming earplugs are good enough. That's just one example.
Bottom line, in my opinion, I think your boss needs to give you full authority to pick and choose all the members of your crew. In that manner, anyone who wants to work with you will need to earn their spot, and part of earning their spot will be by following your orders with regard to the wearing of PPE. As well as implementing any other site safety safeguards you deem necessary, such as running a plastic warning tape around the circumference of the drop zone, to help keep people safe.
I might be wrong, but I get the impression that you are the "King Kong" of this whole company, and by force of will, can insist that your crews operate how you want them to. This about covers all of my thoughts on these issues.
Nice job on the letter, and I wish you luck on making this company change for the better.
Tim
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Congratulations on taking the stand you needed to. I agree with Tim about your position being more powerful than you realize. Your statement in the quote here that he has asked you to help him get up to par is separate and apart from the bringing the gear up to speed. Now it's time to sit down and write out an action plan for getting the company to "par". I think the only way that can happen is if you're authority is clearly spelled out to the employees by the owner. You're proving your value to the company beyond being just a climber. However, as a side note, when you are the climber you're the crew leader and thus already are in a position of running the show.
Start your plan with the step you've already taken, replacing equipment. Now set the action plan steps in the order you feel they should occur including the appointment of you in the role of Safety Officer or some such title with incumbent authority to act on infractions of safe work practice standards up to and including dismissal. Once you've organized your thoughts ask for a meeting to go over your plan and hash out the details for implementation (it's kinda like Col. Nicholson's meeting with Col. Saito in The Bridge on the River Kwai). Here you can get his buy in to the program and establish your new role, maybe some compensation for the extra duties and responsibilities as well.
Good luck!
Jeff
Branched out member
- Location
- Marlborough, MA
Well said Tim! Nicely thought out, well reasoned and logical post!
Stihlmadd
Been here a while
- Location
- Adelaide South Australia
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