'Administrative unevenness'??? Interesting...

[Tom Dunlap]

\'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

...implications for enforcement.

Read this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/19/us/to-avert-liability-washington-town-drops-helmet-laws.html?_r=1

Now, make some substitutions. Don't get bogged down on bike helmets. This is a key issue:

And an inability to enforce a law on the books, the town’s insurance consultant argued, created administrative unevenness that — in the event of an accident by someone who was not nagged or cited about helmet use — posed a liability risk that could bankrupt the community with one swipe from a punitive-minded jury.

I'd like to know more about what sort of standing 'administrative unevenness' has in the courts.

There have been other times when this sort of thing comes up and has frustrating results.

Ever since my sister got away with something and I got punished inconsistencies have bothered me.

The warning here might be to be aware of 'the rules' and enforce or abide by them.

 

[jomoco]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

Seems analogous to enforcing or not enforcing ISA standards pertaining to certified arborists, tree workers etc.

As an independent, I prefer letting my work speak for itself. Live and let live as it's been said.

The Soviets liked that neighbor ratting off neighbor form of govt policing though. Very efficient and cost effective.

I agree with Washington state's decision, and voluntarily choose to wear a helmet as well.

Freedom of choice mates.

jomoco

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

J...

YOu're missing the point. Its NOT about freedom of choice or what is safe.

A case might be made if ISA ever did choose to enforce their standards. This is one reason that ISA has chosen not to de-certify, it would likely cost too much money.

 

[jomoco]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

ISA needs to form a labor union so it represents the vast majority of hands on tree workers, their well being, training, and safety on the job.

In my opinion.

Sorta like American steel workers Tom.

jomoco

 

[just_a_tree_guy]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

i live in pa there is a law that you must wear a seatbelt in your vehicle but if you ride a motorcycle it is your choice to wear a helmet . WTF !!! shows how dumb are politicians really are . they give good fines for not wearing a seatbelt, but you do not need a helmet to ride your motorcycle .....

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

Just...do you see the reason that the city stopped enforcing the bike helmet law? Do you see how this relates to exposure to liability?

 

[cerviarborist]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

The problem with that sort of thinking, is that the potential for an incident to occur, doesn't go away, it's just left on the table in the hopes that someone else will pick it up.

Florida repealed a motorcycle helmet law many years ago. Since then, many more people suffered serious head injuries, many of which weren't covered by private insurance, so the citizens of each county now get to pay for the cost of injuries sustained by riders too ignorant to protect their own gourds. A lot of people have taken to calling them "donorcycles" in Florida.

I'm inclined to guess that a parent lax enough to not make their child wear a helmet on a bike or skateboard, is likely to not have an abundance of insurance either. If their child winds up injured, their fellow citizens are likely to share the bill in funding the burden of uninsured care for their local hospital.

The citizens of the city can either pay for a cop to enforce a helmet law, pay for indigent care when someone gets injured, and/or pay to settle a lawsuit. They just have to determine how they want to manage the risk.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

Cervia,

Kind of like employers who don't use PPE or follow best industry practices...more than likely don't have insurance either.

 

[rfwoodvt]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

A significant part of the problem as RC pointed to is that when bozos don't wear the PPE they expect the rest of us to pony up and pay thier bills.

However, who are the real bozos, the ones expecting to be taken care of or the ones being taken to care for the idiots.

I have no problem if some people wish to assume more risk for thier own health and well being than others might.

HOWEVER, if they are assuming the risk of injury they must also assume the risk of repair. Period, without exception, in full.

And if they can't afford to get fixed, too-bad-so-sad should have paid attention. There are enough safety warnings out there that nobody really has an excuse for not paying attention.

Assumption of risk means assumption of all risk. And assuming all people so dumb that they aren't responsible for doing stoopid just breeds stoopid people!

Why, if we accept Darwinism and Evolution as the orgins of our existences, does our society spend so much effort in bailing out those that are desperately trying to remove themselves from the gene pool?

C'mon folks lets let natural selection work in our own species! After watching enough Darwin award recipients win thier prizes society will be pretty quick to start a-changin' thier ways.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

Soooo...what happens when a person breaks a law/regulation that isn't enforced and is hurt?

Is there negligence on the part of the state or company?

Who is held responsible for enforcing rules and regs?

 

[cerviarborist]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

I think a finding of liability/negligence would be a stretch, honestly, but I'm not an attorney. I wonder whether their insurance consultant is.

I would hope the city's "insurance consultant" isn't also their insurance agent, as that would be a clear conflict of interest. I wonder though, how close to the cost of the salary and benefit package of a police officer FTE, was the fee of the consultant, who told them they'd be better off to just nix the law?

 

[Toparboring]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

This is an interesting thread Tom. Two yrs ago we a guy get buried up to his shoulders in a trench. There was no shoring put up, soil not pulled back. hours they spent digging him out , with bruised ribs and a hurt hip is all he had wrong. Within a week it was found his mistake for not using the proper equipment on the site. The whole shop took the blame, classes where held and more shoring was bought.

In the private sector it should not be up to the masses to pay out for lack of brains on job sites. We all wake up and go to work knowing what we need for a days job, common sense. For those who believe their kids head is fine and no need for a helmet well take a look at road rash.

Our industry gets bombed every time someone gets hurt or killed do to not using ppe,or doing the job unsafely. Not only in ins. costs, but also clients who hear and assume we are the same. When we do logging jobs we need proper documents and who's doing what through the DEC. A meet and greet with them on the site before, during and, after. Doing tree jobs in some towns we need permits. I think the permits are good way of knowing who and what for an OSHA drop in. As for the permits the home owner gets it,we sign it ,and we are respomsable for what happens not the home owner. In my opinion if towns did the permits I think just maybe, the hacks will get weeded out.

 

[Northwind]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

Tom,

Whatever happened to "ignorance of the law is no defense?"

There has to be more going on in Milton, WA regarding bike hats than the NYTimes was willing to look into. Can you believe that Milton, WA doesn't have at least 8 dozen other bylaws they have no interest in prosecuting, yet have no intent of striking down?

There is a nascent but vocal movement here suggesting that we could get more butts out of car seats and onto bike saddles if we relaxed the bike hat laws for adults.

West coast thing, but no shock to me if Milton council is just using a bit of one report to give the people of Milton what they've asked for for years.

More like administrative uneasiness than uneveness.

Northwind

 

[just_a_tree_guy]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

tom does the city make more money by not enforcing the helmet law ? i would suspect it is money drivin somehow .

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Re: \'Administrative unevenness\'??? Interesting...

[ QUOTE ]
More like administrative uneasiness than uneveness.


[/ QUOTE ]

Northwind...yes...I agree!

Whenever I consider weaseling on a safety or tree care action I consider how defensible my action might be in court.

The measure that I use is to think what might happen if I had to sit on the witness stand and face Jack McCoy from the show 'Law and Order'. Jack is merciless! He is known for reaching down a witness' throat and pulling their guts up. Not pretty nor gentle. He does win most cases though.

If I don't think that I could face down Jack McCoy, I don't push limits.

Without talking to the insurance goons from the city I have no clue what they hope to accomplish. It seems like they would be just as liable, or more, by trying to opt out of enforcing the ordinance.

We can't 'chery pick' which regs we abide by. You're either in or out. I've had the good fortune to talk with friends who are expert witnesses in arbo related lawsuits. They're traded places on subsequent cases, and still maintained respect and friendship. Each has found enough evidence to present a strong case. The jury decides though.