A tree climber's union?

Bradypus said:
It's partially true. Horse-drawn carriages take a lot of space too and cities had been designed and redesigned to fit this need. Haussmannian streets in Paris were made way before the car was invented and are still the most confortable streets to drive through. And when car arrived the only thing that really needed to be made was finding place to park, so parking had been digged underground.

As you say european are used to a human scale. In big cities we are used to live in tiny appartments compared to american ones. So population density is really high and that provides enough clients to have many shops in each quarter. I think that more than an obligation it's because of a life style. We could have destroy everything and make it non pedestrian, in fact we have destroyed and rebuilt a lot but most often keeping the scale and facilities we are used too. Try to change the life style a parisian loves and you will end up with a revolution. ^^

Wich brings us back to unions... hum...
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Your talking to a guy who lives in Manhattan. There ain't no tellin' this guy about small space. lol

Granted American things are on a slightly bigger scale than Europe. I would guess that Europeans themselves are a tad smaller in size that your average American.


Also, Rockett's comment about "trade secrets", just about laughable in this day and age. Ef You Tube!
 
The word communist is so misused. I'm trying to detect any sarcasm or irony here, TL, but Internet sure makes it tough.
Well, it was a good run, but seems like the union thread had run its course. Thanks gents for entertaining me with mostly well-thought-out posts and intelligent conversation

To be continued.......(?)
 
So because history is fitted to facts rather than your emotionalized conception of what you think it should be it's rewritten? Perhaps you should change your avatar to Trolllogic. Or perhaps simply troll, as someone who refuses to use reason does not deserve to use the term logic. Sad that a good thread can be derailed by one jackass.
 
Excellent point Tom, but we're Americans and we like sound bites. I doubt TL read it in the first place but I figured the odds would be better with something that was succinct. I know I shouldn't take the bait but people who refuse any sort of change to the worldview they were indoctrinated with piss me off. I even know that it's pointless to try to change minds as I was a political activist as a high schooler. My worldview went from right wing to left wing to a very odd mix that sits somewhere in the middle. Over years of debate and pamphleteering I realized you have a few kinds of people those who cling even tighter to their worldview when confronted with conflicting evidence, those willing to make small concessions to appear less rigid and those who believe anything they are told. The person who rationally responds to reasonable argument is incredibly rare. I will admit that I am rarely willing to change my mind on something until I am able to do my own research on a subject. Studies even show that when looking at statistics on something they feel strongly about, people's ability to do basic math and statistical analysis withers away. We are creatures of emotion. I've never met a Spock.
 
Whinoclimber, I am simply pointing out that all you leftys like to change history to meet your needs. Were you there? No. But somehow you often "know" better than the people who were there so you change it. Hitler and Stalin (over-define them anyway you like) have always been known as communists to Americans. Why the sudden need to transform that definition? Hmmmm...maybe because it gets in the way of the crap you're pushing?
 
Where did you go to school? I guess here in "lefty" Wyoming we were taught the difference between communism and fascism, just as we were taught differences between capitalism and socialism. See, hitler and Stalin were very brief "allies" in WWII. Being allies, especially as short term as they were does not mean that a group shares a similar ideology. And I'm forced to ask, were you there? Because unless you were, your argument about revisionist history doesn't hold water because you come from the same position as myself, being people with no first hand knowledge. Show me a legitimate historian that argues that fascism and communism are the same thing and I'll consider it. But likely I'll simply refute it with more facts. And why? Because they aren't the same thing. Plain and simple.
 
Funny how Stalin and the Russians were allied with the US and Britain during WW2 to fight against the common enemy of Fascist powers Germany, Italy and Japan. But for many people, it's easier to lump everyone into one group and label it for whatever purpose it will serve. Too much to ask the general population to understand the nuances of political systems, specially during war. It's us vs. them. Who is "them"? Not us.

96-ww2usa.jpg
 
Thank you for pointing out the importance of differentiating between different political and economic systems. It may be "semantics" but semantics are important as they provide a frame of reference for everyone to understand things from. Language and definitions are important. When they lose their meaning, we no longer have a common ground from which to discuss. I could also point out to Treelogic that my early history teachers were my grandparents. My great uncle was at Pearl Harbor, my grandfather was at Iwo Jima and another great uncle was at Normandy. My WWII foundation came from boots that were on the ground. And I never heard them argue that communism and fascism were the same thing. But I guess that makes them "lefties".
 
It looks like most human beings since we exist are poor, fragile, suffering. To be able to get better they think we have to be peacefull and share wealth (not only consumerists wealth but also health care, education, friendship etc). But to be able to do it political power is needed that's why socialism, communism etc comes from the labor class and becomes political parties.

But there allways been, and there allways be alpha individuals like within any other animal specie. They use any political ideas to get power upon the mass. Stalin or Mao were more stalinist and maoist than communists, Hitler wasn't a socialist even if nazi means national socialist, coming from socialism Mussolini founded fascism etc etc etc. It doesn't mean social ideals are bad, it means they are, like any other ideologies, used by megalomaniac dominants to get in charge.

Have a look to the commune of 1871 from what communism been inspired, have a look how different from what we call communism it was, how violently repressed it's been by elites, how the history had been rewritten by the bourgeoisie and new leaders. Lefters are not the only one to rewrite history. History is allways written by winners, no matter their ideologies.

It proves me that the thing elites fears the most is direct or liquid democracy, because it destroyes left/right dualities, it destroyes political carierism, it gives back the power to people. What dictators, dominant elites and false democrats of any kind fear the most is obviously the way to go if you want to be free to decide for yourself. Unions are not a solution as long as they mimic pyramidal systems.

A thought for the poor communards that only wanted people to find peace and sharing, been slaughtered by thousands and used by righters and lefters dominants to build their power pretending the commune was made of evils or saints, and at the end making us forget about who they really were, what they really wanted and did.
 
wyoclimber said:
My great uncle was at Pearl Harbor, my grandfather was at Iwo Jima and another great uncle was at Normandy. My WWII foundation came from boots that were on the ground. And I never heard them argue that communism and fascism were the same thing. But I guess that makes them "lefties".
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That's maybe because in Normandy one of the european guy you could deeply count to find beside you against nazis and fascists, that could (and did) sacrifice himself to save you, was communist (or anarchist also by the way). It doesn't mean you should agree with them, it doesn't mean Russia didn't became a dictature, it's just that they were fighting since the beggining and never gaved up. You could trust them, they would never run away, they were the guys that asked to not have a bag on the head when they were executed, just to be able to show to shooters how much they hated them and how determined they were, no matter what. At that time americans and european communists were brothers in arms. You couldn't mistake a communist with a nazi, but that wouldn't not make you a leftie.


That's why in Europe communism been really strong after WWII. People were trusting a lot communists thank to their resistance against nazis and fascists. They gived their lifes to defend us against darkness and it was difficult to imagine communism could be darkness too. And that's why other people were also trusting a lot captalism as USA been here too to save our ass, with the same blind beleive that capitalism couldn't be darkness neither. Reading Marx smoking Lucky Strike, that was the way to go untill the cold war... since then the big wall falled and we've seen what was hided behind, wall street explosed several times to our face, people doesn't trust much any of these two options.
 
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Well it appears that I have been schooled on communism. I honestly never gave it much study.

It was so hated by the American majority ever since I was a kid I guess it never seemed like there was anything to learn. I remember the movies Red Dawn, the Bond movies, Air Force One, Rambo, Platoon, and Rocky IV just to name a few. But I forgot something too. I forgot that propaganda is alive and well on both sides of the coin.

My opinions also came from relatives who were veterans. But let's not leave out the veterans of many different wars, not just living here in the south, but from all over the country, with left and right ideologies. It seemed like a dishonor to those who died for our freedom to give it a second thought. But knowledge is never a dishonor so thanks for setting me straight on that.

My apologies for arguing yet not understanding the different facets of communism and fascism. I guess tyrants can pop up in any venue. Now I want to read more. This isn't going to change me as a capitalist, but I'll be a lot more willing to listen and try to understand other points of view.
 
This is a really brave confession TreeLogic. It is deeply honorable.
I feel MacCartyism and the cold war blinded a lot US citizen about communism and socialism, just like russian people had been blinded about capitalism. You'll see communism has a complex history made of many different currents and learning about it will make you discover a lot of things because to be understood it needs to learn more about historical contexts.

Of course i'm focusing on what i know but i feel french socialism is a very interesting thing to study to understand what socialism is about. What the difference is with communism. It takes its roots into the revolution of 1789, became an ideology during the 19th century until it bringed the revolution of 1848 and 1871. Even if the word socialism has been invented in England it's in France that it became a real political movement and during european modern history french socialism was often showing the path to others european socialists movements. And it also strongly shown its treasons to people's hopes. French socialism is a bit the perfect exemple of the rise and fall of this ideology. You'll find there the best and the worse...

French communism was the biggest communist movement in Europe but is not that interesting because it was mostly the little dog of Moscow. It can be interesting to study though in order to understand its recent metamorphosis into the "left front" wich may become one of the most influent left party for the next decades. It's kind of a mix between democratic socialism and ecologism, asking for a sixth republic made of liquid democracy. But to understand communism nothing is better than reading Marx and look how he influenced the sovietic revolution, or how his thought been perverted by sovietics...

Don't worry it wont make you become a "coco" ;)
Been through it and i'm not socialist nor communist.


Anarchism is in my opinion an other usefull thing to know about. Unfairly depreciated too, as any other ideology it has its good and bad sides, but it looks like most people know only about the bad.
 
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