A Neurotic "New Homeowners" Question

cerviarborist said:
Guy, what exactly is a TRAQ report? You bash those as a regular theme in your posts, but I've personally never heard of one. I didn't come away from the class with any particular report format. There's a recommended matrix for gathering and compiling information in the field, but that doesn't go to the client. My take-away from TRAQ was that I now have a better way to explain to a client just how low the level of risk generally is, in terms they can understand. You seem to be articulating that everyone coming out of TRAQ wants to immediately hop on a feller-buncher and remove every tree in sight.
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Whoa now Cerv ease up on that common sense and professional services. It's better to bash things as a whole because you don't agree 100%.

The first (better in 2nd) post here told h/o to take a good approach to take care of his tree.
We didn't say get a TRAQ report we said get a professional opinion and not just guess from pictures.

Guy can you plz attach what ever superior system for gathering information that you use so we can look it over?

It has to be broad enough to encompass most trees on most sites, user friendly to help arbs with less experience along, and cost effective for a full range of clientele.

I can't wait to see the fool proof reliable, uninvasive, consistent cheap system.

From all of us learning how to better understand trees and what we can do for them and our clients this would be great.
 
guymayor said:
Previous HO can be highly educated if they watched the tree move in storms, or knew the history of the erosion and construction damage at the base. I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss their opinion, or hold my own above it.

How does one assess a palm 'trunk'? Look for cracks with binoculars? I would be challenged to do a handson aerial inspection on that thing! Maybe just replace soil at the base, stabilize the slope, and watch it wave in the wind. Maybe plant other trees nearby to share the wind (eventually).

The last thing the dearly departed jerryk needs is an unqualified recommendation, based on an incomplete inspection, with little or no consideration of mitigation options, which pretty much sums up most of the TRAQ reports that I see.

I reviewed 4 of these drill-and-kill reports yesterday for a city; all condemned an old oak. one from a PhD instructor, 3 were TRAQ 'qualified', none worth the paper they were written on.

How anyone can 'assess' something before they know how to 'inspect' it is beyond me, but they still voluntarily pull recommendations out of their aspirations for avoiding business liability, which seems to be the main lesson in TRAQ training.
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Guy you say he doesn't need a unqualified TRAQ opinion but you can give 2 just from a couple pics.
So just having this pot/kettle conundrum going on.
Traq is a tool to use but the arb gives the opinion, it just sucks that no one else can work at your level.
 
RC I can send these to you and you can judge for yourself. I know you to be fairly reasonable, no doubt you do not take the common Chicken Little approach.
One schmuck got out of his truck, looked at the conk, walked back to his truck, and moved it down the (rarely used) street, beforecoming back and decrying about hazards and liabilities.
O, and portions of the matrices often go from TRAQ-trained assessors to clients; why would they not?

Kevin sorry i'm pist; just finishing a report that is a whole lot longer than it needs to be, because it's nothing like the first 4 drillandkill jobs so I gotta explain stuff in detail. My butt's chafed.
If you went to Ontario's 2012 meeting you coulda heard a 150-minute harangue on
Tree Inspection Procedures, from ANSI A300 Part 8 and Germany’s ZTV

Clarify the owner’s goals. Consider the potential contributions of the tree to the site. Study aerial maps, the ecosystem, past management, disturbance, and site history.

To assess the effect of different interactions on the vitality of trees requires special knowledge, long-term observation, including the soil and growing environment.
Review all of the potential tree care techniques that can deliver those contributions.

Establish the objective. Provide maximum vitality health and safety of trees. Prune old trees only when necessary. Retain deadwood except for sanitation or safety. When a tree must be removed consider leaving sections as habitat.

Write specifications (detailed, measurable plan or proposal for meeting the objective). Specify inspection tools and practices that avoid damage to living tissue, bark or soil.

Specify the inspection method and area. Before contracts begin, a definite diagnosis.

“83.3.4 Inspection should include…:

Conditions in the crown that may reflect root conditions;

Stem tissue connecting the crown and the roots; vitality, tipping and breaking safety.

Girdling of buttress roots or stems by roots or foreign objects, and the tree’s response;

Tree association with beneficial and harmful insects;

Tree association with pathogenic and beneficial microorganisms (e.g. mycorrhizae);

Wounds, and the tree’s response to wounds;

Mechanical damage to detectable roots, and response;

Indications of root disease and response…” soil aeration , moisture and nutrients.

“Mulch, soil and foreign material should be removed as needed to allow inspection.”

Bark” tracing of wounds shall remove only dead, loose, and damaged tissue.”

Evaluate decay, callus and woundwood growth, and response growth in trunk and crown.” Investigation produces explicit and exhaustive specifications.

Cost-benefit analysis considers ornamental ecological cultural and functional significance of the tree. Objectives are to improve vitality and extend life. Consider supporting instead of pruning, Predict the trees reaction to the work…ability to compartmentalize…Coordinate any works on roots, stem and crown with each other.


83.3.9 The flare and buttress roots should remain visible...


Specify the method, area, depth, tools, equipment and limitations of excavation. Diagnose detectable flare and root diseases and disorders. Protect root and stem tissue newly exposed to sunlight where needed.
 
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guymayor said:
RC I can send these to you and you can judge for yourself. I know you to be fairly reasonable, no doubt you do not take the common Chicken Little approach.
One schmuck got out of his truck, looked at the conk, walked back to his truck, and moved it down the (rarely used) street, beforecoming back and decrying about hazards and liabilities.
O, and portions of the matrices often go from TRAQ-trained assessors to clients; why would they not?

Kevin sorry i'm pist; just finishing a report that is a whole lot longer than it needs to be, because it's nothing like the first 4 drillandkill jobs so I gotta explain stuff in detail. My butt's chafed.
If you went to Ontario's 2012 meeting you coulda heard a 150-minute harangue on
Tree Inspection Procedures, from ANSI A300 Part 8 and Germany’s ZTV

Clarify the owner’s goals. Consider the potential contributions of the tree to the site. Study aerial maps, the ecosystem, past management, disturbance, and site history.

To assess the effect of different interactions on the vitality of trees requires special knowledge, long-term observation, including the soil and growing environment.
Review all of the potential tree care techniques that can deliver those contributions.

Establish the objective. Provide maximum vitality health and safety of trees. Prune old trees only when necessary. Retain deadwood except for sanitation or safety. When a tree must be removed consider leaving sections as habitat.

Write specifications (detailed, measurable plan or proposal for meeting the objective). Specify inspection tools and practices that avoid damage to living tissue, bark or soil.

Specify the inspection method and area. Before contracts begin, a definite diagnosis.

“83.3.4 Inspection should include…:

Conditions in the crown that may reflect root conditions;

Stem tissue connecting the crown and the roots; vitality, tipping and breaking safety.

Girdling of buttress roots or stems by roots or foreign objects, and the tree’s response;

Tree association with beneficial and harmful insects;

Tree association with pathogenic and beneficial microorganisms (e.g. mycorrhizae);

Wounds, and the tree’s response to wounds;

Mechanical damage to detectable roots, and response;

Indications of root disease and response…” soil aeration , moisture and nutrients.

“Mulch, soil and foreign material should be removed as needed to allow inspection.”

Bark” tracing of wounds shall remove only dead, loose, and damaged tissue.”

Evaluate decay, callus and woundwood growth, and response growth in trunk and crown.” Investigation produces explicit and exhaustive specifications.

Cost-benefit analysis considers ornamental ecological cultural and functional significance of the tree. Objectives are to improve vitality and extend life. Consider supporting instead of pruning, Predict the trees reaction to the work…ability to compartmentalize…Coordinate any works on roots, stem and crown with each other.


83.3.9 The flare and buttress roots should remain visible...


Specify the method, area, depth, tools, equipment and limitations of excavation. Diagnose detectable flare and root diseases and disorders. Protect root and stem tissue newly exposed to sunlight where needed.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info to read through
 
guymayor said:
RC I can send these to you and you can judge for yourself. I know you to be fairly reasonable, no doubt you do not take the common Chicken Little approach.
One schmuck got out of his truck, looked at the conk, walked back to his truck, and moved it down the (rarely used) street, beforecoming back and decrying about hazards and liabilities.
O, and portions of the matrices often go from TRAQ-trained assessors to clients; why would they not?

Kevin sorry i'm pist; just finishing a report that is a whole lot longer than it needs to be, because it's nothing like the first 4 drillandkill jobs so I gotta explain stuff in detail. My butt's chafed.
If you went to Ontario's 2012 meeting you coulda heard a 150-minute harangue on
Tree Inspection Procedures, from ANSI A300 Part 8 and Germany’s ZTV

Clarify the owner’s goals. Consider the potential contributions of the tree to the site. Study aerial maps, the ecosystem, past management, disturbance, and site history.

To assess the effect of different interactions on the vitality of trees requires special knowledge, long-term observation, including the soil and growing environment.
Review all of the potential tree care techniques that can deliver those contributions.

Establish the objective. Provide maximum vitality health and safety of trees. Prune old trees only when necessary. Retain deadwood except for sanitation or safety. When a tree must be removed consider leaving sections as habitat.

Write specifications (detailed, measurable plan or proposal for meeting the objective). Specify inspection tools and practices that avoid damage to living tissue, bark or soil.

Specify the inspection method and area. Before contracts begin, a definite diagnosis.

“83.3.4 Inspection should include…:

Conditions in the crown that may reflect root conditions;

Stem tissue connecting the crown and the roots; vitality, tipping and breaking safety.

Girdling of buttress roots or stems by roots or foreign objects, and the tree’s response;

Tree association with beneficial and harmful insects;

Tree association with pathogenic and beneficial microorganisms (e.g. mycorrhizae);

Wounds, and the tree’s response to wounds;

Mechanical damage to detectable roots, and response;

Indications of root disease and response…” soil aeration , moisture and nutrients.

“Mulch, soil and foreign material should be removed as needed to allow inspection.”

Bark” tracing of wounds shall remove only dead, loose, and damaged tissue.”

Evaluate decay, callus and woundwood growth, and response growth in trunk and crown.” Investigation produces explicit and exhaustive specifications.

Cost-benefit analysis considers ornamental ecological cultural and functional significance of the tree. Objectives are to improve vitality and extend life. Consider supporting instead of pruning, Predict the trees reaction to the work…ability to compartmentalize…Coordinate any works on roots, stem and crown with each other.


83.3.9 The flare and buttress roots should remain visible...


Specify the method, area, depth, tools, equipment and limitations of excavation. Diagnose detectable flare and root diseases and disorders. Protect root and stem tissue newly exposed to sunlight where needed.
Click to expand...
The traq to investigate the tree or your way it still says look at everything very thoroughly and document and form an opinion. To best suit needs of customer and tree.

You asked about a crack in the trunk how would you find or deal with it any better than a traq ca or lonely old me finding it. You're on observation and documentation which is good but that is no fix.

So anyone taking time to look through any sort of investigative reporting shouldn't be mocked or shot down. Education not belittlement helps so traq isn't bad it's a tool.
Drilling is a decision by the arb or does traq say you shall drill all trees?
 
jerryk said:
I have a healthy @100 foot palm tree on my steep hillside that overhangs our patio and house. When the Los Angeles winter rain and winds kick in I get freaked out at how it bends.
The base is partially exposed from the hillside.Can anyone tell me if I should be concerned or not

View attachment 32976 View attachment 32977
Thanks in advance.

Jerry
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They can stand up to hurricane winds, rest easy,,,
Jeff
 
jerryk said:
I have a healthy @100 foot palm tree on my steep hillside that overhangs our patio and house. When the Los Angeles winter rain and winds kick in I get freaked out at how it bends.
The base is partially exposed from the hillside.Can anyone tell me if I should be concerned or not

View attachment 32976 View attachment 32977
Thanks in advance.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Outside of erosion control, what purpose does your palm serve. Cost of keeping it may outweigh the benefit. I would consider removal and replacing with new palms that can be brought in to hold that hill together. Start with small ones possibly with 4-5 feet of exposed trunk.
 
guymayor said:
TF please share the math on your cost/benefit analysis. I'm not following your math.
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Here is the math or considerations.

What value does the palm have?
-Erosion control - high - Fibrous root system that is extremely strong and dense. Hardly ever see them fall over.
-Aesthetics / shade value - Medium to low - Singular palm in a field of desert scrub brush. High canopy height providing a small ball of shade during the day moving every 15 minutes.
-Longevity - medium / low - Contact your local Extension for the average terminal height of your local palms of the same species. They eventually get to high and just cannot transport water to support the canopy and die.
Costs - high - annual pruning requiring three methods of entry. 1. Spikes - we know what that does and who uses them. 2. European hoop approach - Who has them - Expensive. 3. Throw line - gotta be good but and Arborist should be at least 2-3 times the cost of the spikes.

Math - If annual pruning of the canopy is $300 and it lives another 10 years then you will invest $3000 into a palm with little shade/ aesthetic value. If you drop the tree and it costs less then $1000 then invest the $2000 into a random grove on the hill side. I say random so that you can absorb tree loss with no aesthetic decline. Rows and patterns require removal and replacement of like trees. Start with replacement of different sizes and anticipate shade value in the future. You get screening value as they are young and as they grow taller you could leave space for smaller palms in-between the existing taller palms.

I hope this covers it.
 
Just to play devil's advocate, the palm in the photos doesn't appear to be carrying a large petticoat of dead fronds. Generally once they slough off that first petticoat, they become self-cleaning, and afterward shift to dropping single fronds as they senesce and detach. The cost of pruning the palm at this point, may well be zero. I love these kinds of threads, where there are so many different perspectives, from which to view the issue.
 
Tree_Frog said:
Here is the math or considerations.

What value does the palm have?
-Erosion control - high - Fibrous root system that is extremely strong and dense. Hardly ever see them fall over.
-Aesthetics / shade value - Medium to low - Singular palm in a field of desert scrub brush. High canopy height providing a small ball of shade during the day moving every 15 minutes.
-Longevity - medium / low - Contact your local Extension for the average terminal height of your local palms of the same species. They eventually get to high and just cannot transport water to support the canopy and die.
Costs - high - annual pruning requiring three methods of entry. 1. Spikes - we know what that does and who uses them. 2. European hoop approach - Who has them - Expensive. 3. Throw line - gotta be good but and Arborist should be at least 2-3 times the cost of the spikes.

Math - If annual pruning of the canopy is $300 and it lives another 10 years then you will invest $3000 into a palm with little shade/ aesthetic value. If you drop the tree and it costs less then $1000 then invest the $2000 into a random grove on the hill side. I say random so that you can absorb tree loss with no aesthetic decline. Rows and patterns require removal and replacement of like trees. Start with replacement of different sizes and anticipate shade value in the future. You get screening value as they are young and as they grow taller you could leave space for smaller palms in-between the existing taller palms.

I hope this covers it.
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Very well laid out and explained, thanks
 
cerviarborist said:
Just to play devil's advocate, the palm in the photos doesn't appear to be carrying a large petticoat of dead fronds. Generally once they slough off that first petticoat, they become self-cleaning, and afterward shift to dropping single fronds as they senesce and detach. The cost of pruning the palm at this point, may well be zero. I love these kinds of threads, where there are so many different perspectives, from which to view the issue.
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Pruning also depends if the tree is in a vista view line or the back corner no one goes to
 
Agree; no pruning, no cost. I asked becasue when arborists do these analyses they typically value the tree at $0. btw i agree re aesthetics and erosion, but am not competent to judge longevity (and I would not bet the ranch on the opinion from Extension)
 
cerviarborist said:
Just to play devil's advocate, the palm in the photos doesn't appear to be carrying a large petticoat of dead fronds. Generally once they slough off that first petticoat, they become self-cleaning, and afterward shift to dropping single fronds as they senesce and detach. The cost of pruning the palm at this point, may well be zero. I love these kinds of threads, where there are so many different perspectives, from which to view the issue.
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I agree, I would leave it alone,
Also,, I bet that tree has been spiked more than a 'punch bowl',,
Being near worthless and expensive to remove and twice that in dump fee's,,
it is a no brainer,,, that palm (imo) is no problem and annual pruning would be minimal,
Has nothing to do with erosion control.
BTW, can Treefrog tell us the life span of washingtonia robusta,,?
Curious,,lot's of old palm's here,,:bailando::bailando:
Jeff
 
Ok, Ok lol. Just trying to up-sell the client for a new look. Get a local "experienced" Arborist over there and start putting replacement palms in randomly with the "prick of the prairie" extending upward to the sky. ;)
 
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