TreeLogic
Branched out member
- Location
- Coastal SC
Thanks Tony. So maybe the stretch I've felt climbing on True Blue might be because it stretches at a lower load than say Safety Blue? Even though at higher loads Safety Blue could stretch more?
24 strand rope vs 16
- Thread starter monkeylove
- Start date
Tony
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Lancaster, PA
Treelogic,
Entirely possible. Although you would have to reference the data. A P.I.A. and tricky with bodyweight loads.
Just go with good sense and take advice/suggestions from climbers who use a similar system and climbing style.
Tony
Entirely possible. Although you would have to reference the data. A P.I.A. and tricky with bodyweight loads.
Just go with good sense and take advice/suggestions from climbers who use a similar system and climbing style.
Tony
monkeylove
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Roslyn, Pa.
Nice to hear about Kermaster being safe as a climbing rope. I really love my Vortex but wanted to try the Kermaster, just worried that as a static it was not safe to climb on. Thanks Tony.
Mark,
I agree there is much unfounded paranoia out there on arborist ascender use! However, in cases where a remotely set line (i.e. throw bag) loops over an unseen sucker, a significant drop is possible. I hear of it quite often.
If you send a line up over a tree and anchor it at the base and SRT up the other end, how much rope is in system? How does that affect the fall factor numbers? It is possible to break something out and create a dynamic load, but there are techniques available to deal with that possibility. 1) be diligent with TIP, if you question it, redo it. 2) deceleration devices like non ANSI compliant Screamers etc. 3)follow the manufacturer instructions when using their tools. Mechanical ascenders are not designed to be used with 16 strand cover dependent rope. 4) preload the TIP with 2 fat treeworkers before sending the skinny guy up.
If you were to screw up and a mechanical ascender shredded a rope you were using for life support would you prefer the rope broke or the rope shredded? All the people that have cut themselves out of a tree would gladly trade the cut rope for a shredded rope.
There are a lot of options out there and changing one element of a climbing system can change everything. Low and slow. Read the directions. When you are changing something up, be on high alert.
I agree there is much unfounded paranoia out there on arborist ascender use! However, in cases where a remotely set line (i.e. throw bag) loops over an unseen sucker, a significant drop is possible. I hear of it quite often.
If you send a line up over a tree and anchor it at the base and SRT up the other end, how much rope is in system? How does that affect the fall factor numbers? It is possible to break something out and create a dynamic load, but there are techniques available to deal with that possibility. 1) be diligent with TIP, if you question it, redo it. 2) deceleration devices like non ANSI compliant Screamers etc. 3)follow the manufacturer instructions when using their tools. Mechanical ascenders are not designed to be used with 16 strand cover dependent rope. 4) preload the TIP with 2 fat treeworkers before sending the skinny guy up.
If you were to screw up and a mechanical ascender shredded a rope you were using for life support would you prefer the rope broke or the rope shredded? All the people that have cut themselves out of a tree would gladly trade the cut rope for a shredded rope.
There are a lot of options out there and changing one element of a climbing system can change everything. Low and slow. Read the directions. When you are changing something up, be on high alert.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Rope diameter is a much more critical specification to pay attention to when using mechanical rope tools.
The cam's in the tools are designed to move in certain arcs and still maintain proper tooth/face approach angles. If the rope is too big there is a chance that the face of the cam and tooth angle could be more parellel to the rope and not grab properly.
For many years I ranted about this issue but few people wanted to listen because it would have been inconvenient to not be able to use mechanical ascenders and descenders with half inch climbing lines that were available at the time. With the start of sub-half inch lines with New England Ropes Fly there should have been no excuse not to follow proper procedures. But this wasn't the case. During all of these years arbos have been using mechanicals on ropes that are too large or ropes that might have incompatibility issues.
I find it really strange that now all of a sudden when there are proper ropes available that are compatible with mechanicals there is such a furor, finally, to pay attention to this issue. Where was the furor in years past when it wasn't so easy to solve the compatibility issues?
The cam's in the tools are designed to move in certain arcs and still maintain proper tooth/face approach angles. If the rope is too big there is a chance that the face of the cam and tooth angle could be more parellel to the rope and not grab properly.
For many years I ranted about this issue but few people wanted to listen because it would have been inconvenient to not be able to use mechanical ascenders and descenders with half inch climbing lines that were available at the time. With the start of sub-half inch lines with New England Ropes Fly there should have been no excuse not to follow proper procedures. But this wasn't the case. During all of these years arbos have been using mechanicals on ropes that are too large or ropes that might have incompatibility issues.
I find it really strange that now all of a sudden when there are proper ropes available that are compatible with mechanicals there is such a furor, finally, to pay attention to this issue. Where was the furor in years past when it wasn't so easy to solve the compatibility issues?
Tony
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Lancaster, PA
[ QUOTE ]
If you send a line up over a tree and anchor it at the base and SRT up the other end, how much rope is in system? How does that affect the fall factor numbers? It is possible to break something out and create a dynamic load, but there are techniques available to deal with that possibility. 1) be diligent with TIP, if you question it, redo it. 2) deceleration devices like non ANSI compliant Screamers etc. 3)follow the manufacturer instructions when using their tools. Mechanical ascenders are not designed to be used with 16 strand cover dependent rope. 4) preload the TIP with 2 fat treeworkers before sending the skinny guy up.
If you were to screw up and a mechanical ascender shredded a rope you were using for life support would you prefer the rope broke or the rope shredded? All the people that have cut themselves out of a tree would gladly trade the cut rope for a shredded rope.
There are a lot of options out there and changing one element of a climbing system can change everything. Low and slow. Read the directions. When you are changing something up, be on high alert.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree totally! Use the proper tool for the job, with clearly defined objectives, within the parameters of the tools and materials you are using.
And please do not forget about the tree!
Tony
If you send a line up over a tree and anchor it at the base and SRT up the other end, how much rope is in system? How does that affect the fall factor numbers? It is possible to break something out and create a dynamic load, but there are techniques available to deal with that possibility. 1) be diligent with TIP, if you question it, redo it. 2) deceleration devices like non ANSI compliant Screamers etc. 3)follow the manufacturer instructions when using their tools. Mechanical ascenders are not designed to be used with 16 strand cover dependent rope. 4) preload the TIP with 2 fat treeworkers before sending the skinny guy up.
If you were to screw up and a mechanical ascender shredded a rope you were using for life support would you prefer the rope broke or the rope shredded? All the people that have cut themselves out of a tree would gladly trade the cut rope for a shredded rope.
There are a lot of options out there and changing one element of a climbing system can change everything. Low and slow. Read the directions. When you are changing something up, be on high alert.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree totally! Use the proper tool for the job, with clearly defined objectives, within the parameters of the tools and materials you are using.
And please do not forget about the tree!
Tony
TC
Participating member
I dont use anything other than 16 strand Yale XTC, Samson Blue Streak or New England Hi Vee. Most of my work is removals and these ropes have proven themselves time and time again over the years particularly XTC which is my favourite climbing line.
[ QUOTE ]
Rope diameter is a much more critical specification to pay attention to when using mechanical rope tools.
The cam's in the tools are designed to move in certain arcs and still maintain proper tooth/face approach angles. If the rope is too big there is a chance that the face of the cam and tooth angle could be more parellel to the rope and not grab properly.
For many years I ranted about this issue but few people wanted to listen because it would have been inconvenient to not be able to use mechanical ascenders and descenders with half inch climbing lines that were available at the time. With the start of sub-half inch lines with New England Ropes Fly there should have been no excuse not to follow proper procedures. But this wasn't the case. During all of these years arbos have been using mechanicals on ropes that are too large or ropes that might have incompatibility issues.
Tom,
I think the reason nobody wanted to listen was so few were actually using ascenders. It's starting to catch on. It's moving fast...a fair amount of misinformation circulating out there. Humans are creatures of habit and change comes hard, even positive change.
Tony,
It seems we are on the same page. 16 stand still has its place with more traditional climbing styles. Just be careful mixing up the equipment (ropes) between the styles.
The next thing to happen will be a rope manufacturer will really confuse things by making a 11mm 16 strand. Only after they change the Z.
I find it really strange that now all of a sudden when there are proper ropes available that are compatible with mechanicals there is such a furor, finally, to pay attention to this issue. Where was the furor in years past when it wasn't so easy to solve the compatibility issues?
[/ QUOTE ]
Rope diameter is a much more critical specification to pay attention to when using mechanical rope tools.
The cam's in the tools are designed to move in certain arcs and still maintain proper tooth/face approach angles. If the rope is too big there is a chance that the face of the cam and tooth angle could be more parellel to the rope and not grab properly.
For many years I ranted about this issue but few people wanted to listen because it would have been inconvenient to not be able to use mechanical ascenders and descenders with half inch climbing lines that were available at the time. With the start of sub-half inch lines with New England Ropes Fly there should have been no excuse not to follow proper procedures. But this wasn't the case. During all of these years arbos have been using mechanicals on ropes that are too large or ropes that might have incompatibility issues.
Tom,
I think the reason nobody wanted to listen was so few were actually using ascenders. It's starting to catch on. It's moving fast...a fair amount of misinformation circulating out there. Humans are creatures of habit and change comes hard, even positive change.
Tony,
It seems we are on the same page. 16 stand still has its place with more traditional climbing styles. Just be careful mixing up the equipment (ropes) between the styles.
The next thing to happen will be a rope manufacturer will really confuse things by making a 11mm 16 strand. Only after they change the Z.
I find it really strange that now all of a sudden when there are proper ropes available that are compatible with mechanicals there is such a furor, finally, to pay attention to this issue. Where was the furor in years past when it wasn't so easy to solve the compatibility issues?
[/ QUOTE ]
Tony
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Lancaster, PA
[ QUOTE ]
I find it really strange that now all of a sudden when there are proper ropes available that are compatible with mechanicals there is such a furor, finally, to pay attention to this issue. Where was the furor in years past when it wasn't so easy to solve the compatibility issues?
[/ QUOTE ]
Mark and Tom,
I like to think that as a whole tree workers are more knowledgable, less accepting of silver bullet climbing and rigging applications.
I see an increased acceptance of new tools and techniques. One, because they are trickling out there where they have never been before. Two once used/understood they make sense!
It is a slow war we wage to help tree workers of all ilk get the info and experience they need to increase their chance of getting home at night to take there own boots off. I think what you are seeing is the results of our labors!
Tony
I find it really strange that now all of a sudden when there are proper ropes available that are compatible with mechanicals there is such a furor, finally, to pay attention to this issue. Where was the furor in years past when it wasn't so easy to solve the compatibility issues?
[/ QUOTE ]
Mark and Tom,
I like to think that as a whole tree workers are more knowledgable, less accepting of silver bullet climbing and rigging applications.
I see an increased acceptance of new tools and techniques. One, because they are trickling out there where they have never been before. Two once used/understood they make sense!
It is a slow war we wage to help tree workers of all ilk get the info and experience they need to increase their chance of getting home at night to take there own boots off. I think what you are seeing is the results of our labors!
Tony
- Location
- Long Island, New York
There was a lot of debate in this thread and I finally remembered this recent article on Arborist climbing ropes from Tech Rescue Magazine. It starts on page 40 of Issue 4 (Note: you need to be a subscriber to login and download the article) http://www.arbclimber.com/index.php/digital-magazine
A most interesting quote from the article which warrants the reading:
"elongation figures for climbing ropes are not nearly as important as they are for rigging ropes which are regularly shock loaded and the highest breaking strength doesn’t necessarily indicate the best rope as poor elongation could cause it to fail much earlier than a rope with a lower MBS"
In any case, this should clear up any questions from this thread and be good reading. Enjoy !
Tom,
Assuming it's okay with the folks from Arb Climber, it might be worth placing a sticky note about this article.
Regards,
Michael
A most interesting quote from the article which warrants the reading:
"elongation figures for climbing ropes are not nearly as important as they are for rigging ropes which are regularly shock loaded and the highest breaking strength doesn’t necessarily indicate the best rope as poor elongation could cause it to fail much earlier than a rope with a lower MBS"
In any case, this should clear up any questions from this thread and be good reading. Enjoy !
Tom,
Assuming it's okay with the folks from Arb Climber, it might be worth placing a sticky note about this article.
Regards,
Michael
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Michael,
That point is missed by too many people. Dealing with dynamic loads is much different than static.
This issue is coming up for discussion when it affects climbers. Impact loads are what is important. Where does the load hit? Where is the weak point in the system?
That point is missed by too many people. Dealing with dynamic loads is much different than static.
This issue is coming up for discussion when it affects climbers. Impact loads are what is important. Where does the load hit? Where is the weak point in the system?
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Do you ever have the occasional customer service experience like this?- Started by climbingmonkey24
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