Compact Bulldog Bone

You can order 3d printed aluminum parts directly from China for pretty cheap. (Pre tarrif) anyway. The ability for home designers to make some pretty incredible things is kind of wild these days. The same part that today costs 30$ to have prototyped for you cost $300 just a few years ago. You send them a drawing and you get what you drew back in a week or two.

You dont have to have an amazing manufacturing facility to get some pretty incredible things. In a way, that is all Notch is doing. They send drawings to a manufacturer that can make shit , and makes it well. Notch has an excellent team, smart engineers, resources, marketing, etc.. but there is no real reason why you or I or Gordon couldn't send money and drawings of exactly what we want to a manufacturer, and get a box back of incredibly made product ready to go. Nal Hon who makes the RR is really good and they are only in the business of making stuff and specifically climbing equipment. they make products for a wide variety of brands and they would not turn down money to make whatever anyone wants. You wouldn't even have to go there.
There are manufacturers here in Detroit that could do some pretty great work too, but not as specialized, and are likely much more expensive for most things. It all sounds like a headache to do all that.
My point is that you dont necessarily need a 5 axis cnc machine, hot forgeing, amunimum 3d printer of your own to get things made very well these days. Money would help, you would need some investors, a line of credit... and appetite for risk, a business oriented mindset... things that I dont have and have never really felt like pursuing.


I am very impressed by the path Gordon has taken with the BDB as I am with the device itself. There is a magic about what he has accomplished in his garage.
 
treebing said:
You can order 3d printed aluminum parts directly from China for pretty cheap. (Pre tarrif) anyway. The ability for home designers to make some pretty incredible things is kind of wild these days. The same part that today costs 30$ to have prototyped for you cost $300 just a few years ago. You send them a drawing and you get what you drew back in a week or two.

You dont have to have an amazing manufacturing facility to get some pretty incredible things. In a way, that is all Notch is doing. They send drawings to a manufacturer that can make shit , and makes it well. Notch has an excellent team, smart engineers, resources, marketing, etc.. but there is no real reason why you or I or Gordon couldn't send money and drawings of exactly what we want to a manufacturer, and get a box back of incredibly made product ready to go. Nal Hon who makes the RR is really good and they are only in the business of making stuff and specifically climbing equipment. they make products for a wide variety of brands and they would not turn down money to make whatever anyone wants. You wouldn't even have to go there.
There are manufacturers here in Detroit that could do some pretty great work too, but not as specialized, and are likely much more expensive for most things. It all sounds like a headache to do all that.
My point is that you dont necessarily need a 5 axis cnc machine, hot forgeing, amunimum 3d printer of your own to get things made very well these days. Money would help, you would need some investors, a line of credit... and appetite for risk, a business oriented mindset... things that I dont have and have never really felt like pursuing.


I am very impressed by the path Gordon has taken with the BDB as I am with the device itself. There is a magic about what he has accomplished in his garage.
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Good info, and I agree about magic coming from garages.

I just finished a zoom or teams meeting coincidentally, and I asked about some of the points just mentioned

They do use a 5 axis cnc for the prototypes, but forgiving for production thereafter. This includes the plates of the RR I highlighted to another member earlier. I asked about the 3D printing option, and he said it's just not there yet in regards to speed or strength. It ok if you have the time to spend and just want a physical object or component to get the feel off, but woefully inadequate in strength.

I am also mistaken, the throttle is apparently not CE marked yet. He went onto say on behalf of Notch products, that if they try to send non-CE marked goods into Europe, they get seized by customs....and don't even make it to the end user. Didn't expect that.
 
treebing said:
3d printing will only ever really be good for prototyping
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Dunno Kevin - they are printing houses/ neighbourhoods now in Texas I think it was. What do they say in astronomy - Given enough time, the impossible becomes possible, the possible becomes probable and the probable definate. Can't break down plastics and yet . . plastics breakthrough? I am a believer in upright bipedal ingenuity.
 
Njdelaney said:
They're printing those houses here in Detroit too, but using concrete for climbing devices wouldn't work. It seems to make a big difference what the thing being printed needs to be made from.
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Never suggested printing climbing gear outta concrete. But considering Rolls Royce is "growing' turbine compressor blades outta titanium "crystals' to align the metal's structure, who knows if we couldn't come up with some composite material in the future? The stuff in advanced aerospace materials engineering is actually quite amazing now even from five years ago. Is all I meant!
 
Reg said:
There's always a trade off between setting up a shop and going it alone as a brand, or partnering for commission. One thing about the latter that can't be overstated is the actual cost of production and distribution on mass, once all the other R&D, and legal hurdles have been paid for and overcome. I'll repeat this again 5 and 6 years for the blackbird and Throttle to EN standards, as well as optimized for mass production.

If the ambition is to create and distribute big batches, say thousands at one time, around the globe, the ability and cost of this would be very difficult for a small operation.

You also have to factor in how to protect your design on topic everything else. If you haven't got IPR a big fish could just take your idea if they like it. They can make a better version and more of them at a price you just can't compete with. Incidentally, I have to pay the remainder on $45'000 in lawyers fees for my own IPR, as part my contract with Notch. Its still not a guarantee that another manufacturer won't try to rip it off down the line, but having a company like Notch stood with me, it's much less likely to happen. Another note on IPR or Patents. Aside from it costing a lot of money, the design or significant working parts of it has to be unequivocally Novel in the eyes of the examiners, or it doesn't qualify. But you are already $10,000 before you even find that out

The incentive to create large batches is that the process is more profitable per item. But thats just not realistic on so many levels for a small outfit. Whereas a big company has the manufacturing capability, the transportation and dealer networks already in place and waiting.

I could summarize by asking, would you rather own a big piece of something small, or a small piece if something big ?

Once the big operation is flowing and items being sold, the inventor receiving his commission, really doesn't have to do a lot allover. Maybe help with promotion, or in many cases he is then free to get on with designing the next thing and start the process thereafter. How is his time over the next few years going to be best spent. Or maybe he does nothing. I know how I'd answer that, but it's an individual thing

On the other matter of milling. Im set up here to turn and mill, to a level and speed. I'd really like to upgrade, but it would mean selling other relevant machines just to make space.

Like I said, I could make the Bulldog, the akimbo too, having just looked at it. But not the rope runner Vertec. Maybe with a 4-5 axis cnc, or a 3D printer, but not what I have now. I took a couple photos, see what you think. Forget the push buttons and stuff, and just look at the blue plates. Aside from the curves, there's the little inside radius where the connectors press in and out of. Let me know what you see. ThanksView attachment 98636View attachment 98637
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I understand all of what you say here, and I don't disagree.

As far as the milling, A vertex copy would be next to, if not impossible to duplicate with a standard mill. It would be very crude in comparison if it could be done. Maybe some tedious hand filing could finish up the pockets in the blue side plates?? Still would be extremely difficult. BTW this is the first I've seen up close of a vertex. Never seen a RR Pro either. All I've have is an OG and it looks simple compared to the vertex.
 
Reg said:
On some respects I'd agree with you. Certainly a Walmart lampshade, or princess auto drill set product types, almond thousands more. But industrial life support equipment is a little different, don't you think ?

Let's look at a few examples, say, the petzl Zigzag, the Roperunner pro and vertical. DMM kinsi saddle. All mass produced life support. Please tell me where it appears they cut costs ?

I'll put it another way too. From the photos Ive seen here, I could copy and make the Bulldog here at home, as easy as breathing. I think it's made to a similar standard and fabrication that I can also work to. But if I pick up and look and the Rope Runner Vertec, I couldn't reproduce that device as long as I have a hole in my arse. I don't have the tooling capabilities or know how. Not by a mile. Probably the zigzag is no different, although I've never actually held one. I could give you many other examples of mass produced life support items, that are excellent quality because they have to be. One reason is due to the regulations I mentioned previously. The other is the manufacturering technology of the factory itself.
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Just a heads up and a ‘for what it’s worth’. The zig zag is modeled off one of Gordon’s devices. A series of roller chain, so much so it could be considered a rip off.
I see some of your points, but as of now this is an underground device and like others have said many versions and tinkering.
Gordon sent one out for me to play with and it wasn’t for me, I packaged it up and sent it to the next party to try out.

The notch argument is pretty weak, yes it can be a big deal if someone blacked out and their chestie causes a free fall. It certainly COULD happen, but it’s very unlikely.

There is a certain level of personal accountability that which this society lacks. Going back to your car insurance analogy, which is entirely inaccurate. The difference is having liability car insurance is law, that’s due to the risk presented to the collective general public. Climbing has inherent risk, and heaven forbid someone died on a bone, they made a personal choice that only affects themselves directly. Sure it’s traumatic for any who witness, or their close ones. Yet that’s their personal choice, someone climbing on the bone or any ‘certified’ unit only puts the user at risk.

It’s another argument if an employer allows an employee to use un regulated gear or not.
 
Just a clarification, back 12 years ago when I made my "pulley rack" and was showing it here on the buzzboard, there were rumors that Petzl was going to release something new. It was shortly thereafter that they released to the public the zigzag, but they had to have been in development even before I was showing the pulley rack, so neither of us knew what the other was trying to come out with. I will say that my pulley rack had a proprietary headstock, which allowed it to work SRT or DRT. the CE rating on the Petzl did not keep it from developing issues. I know there has been al lot of cross pollination between SRT devices over the last decade or more, which continues to this day, which has been beneficial to arborists.
 
Reg's line of questioning got me wondering (among other things,) why am I so comfortable on this uncertified device? Still wondering... I guess that's how I'm wired. Seemed good from the get go, 10 years later and the proof is in the pudding.

The fact that it's hand made is a cherry on top but the main reason I love the bdb is because it works! I'd buy one from Walmart if that's where they were.

I was lucky enough to try a runner and akimbo both before they were made by the big shops. Maybe I'm just too trusting? But I trusted the makers (wish I still had those og models)

I was also thinking the same as Evo, although the zz was bigly certified it still had multiple recalls, so it seems the certs are not infallible.

Interesting convo at any rate, thanks for stirring it up, Reg.
 
surveyor said:
I know there has been al lot of cross pollination between SRT devices over the last decade or more, which continues to this day, which has been beneficial to arborists.
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That is how I've read your posts over the years as well as the other innovators here who are born tinkerers and helpers. Love the back and forth feedback on the bone, saka variants, akimbo etc. as improvements are made. We got to use a prototype lowering device Sean Ruel was loaned a few yrs back, and I felt so lucky to be (a minuscule) part of the arb gear process/trials.
 
evo said:
Just a heads up and a ‘for what it’s worth’. The zig zag is modeled off one of Gordon’s devices. A series of roller chain, so much so it could be considered a rip off.
I see some of your points, but as of now this is an underground device and like others have said many versions and tinkering.
Gordon sent one out for me to play with and it wasn’t for me, I packaged it up and sent it to the next party to try out.

The notch argument is pretty weak, yes it can be a big deal if someone blacked out and their chestie causes a free fall. It certainly COULD happen, but it’s very unlikely.

There is a certain level of personal accountability that which this society lacks. Going back to your car insurance analogy, which is entirely inaccurate. The difference is having liability car insurance is law, that’s due to the risk presented to the collective general public. Climbing has inherent risk, and heaven forbid someone died on a bone, they made a personal choice that only affects themselves directly. Sure it’s traumatic for any who witness, or their close ones. Yet that’s their personal choice, someone climbing on the bone or any ‘certified’ unit only puts the user at risk.

It’s another argument if an employer allows an employee to use un regulated gear or not.
Click to expand...
I wanted to say exactly this, but you did it far more eloquently than I likely would have.
 
surveyor said:
Just a clarification, back 12 years ago when I made my "pulley rack" and was showing it here on the buzzboard, there were rumors that Petzl was going to release something new. It was shortly thereafter that they released to the public the zigzag, but they had to have been in development even before I was showing the pulley rack, so neither of us knew what the other was trying to come out with. I will say that my pulley rack had a proprietary headstock, which allowed it to work SRT or DRT. the CE rating on the Petzl did not keep it from developing issues. I know there has been al lot of cross pollination between SRT devices over the last decade or more, which continues to this day, which has been beneficial to arborists.
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Good of you to point that out. I've always been interested in how different inventors could come up with similar ideas or solutions to a problem at the same time. Around 100 years ago there was a line of thinking that once you got focused on a certain thing and were working on it "putting it out in the either" others could pick up on it more easily too.

There was also at least one man who was paid to "sit for ideas." Bring a problem to him for which you needed a solution and tell him the basics of what result you would get if you had said solution. He would sit in a dark room at an empty desk with pad and paper and wait for information to flow to him. Then switch on a light and start writing or sketching. Frequently he had no idea of the forces at play in whatever field of endeavor he was solving for.

(Well those are the pre internet stories anyway.) :)
 
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