How Small a Diameter is Safe to Climb High (Conifier)

sdeese said:
Hi AJ,

Thank you soooo much for this level of detail! If I may ask a few more:

As I mentioned before, I'm a self-taught overly-cautious recreational climber. White Pines are my trees of choice and the best trees in my area (I live in Boston MA). I mostly climb SRT (Akimbo, foot ascender, saka knee ascender, and a chest roller which allows me to climb hands free so as to move my flipline up the tree as I climb). This may sound crazy, but I often place a second line in the tree on a different anchor netowrk and trail a Petzl ASAP on it next to me in case the first anchor fails.

Here are my questions:
1. If I am SRT climbing with a flipline wrapped once around the trunk of a white pine (lets say 6' in circumference) and the anchor above fails -- starting a fall -- would the flipline save me (or would I simply fall down the tree). I think a lot about this scenario. It would seem that if the flipline was shortened rather close to the trunk that it would catch and stop me -- albeit after getting a bit scraped up). Does anyone have experience with this?

1b. I know that if you wrap the lanyard/flipline around the trunk 2x, it will catch you. This, however, becomes nearly impossible to advance on larger diameter trees.

2. I also, while climbing SRT, like to take an ART Snake Anchor and use it as a cinch anchor whcih I continutally advance as I climb white pines with sketchy TIPs and few branches up the trunk. I attach the cinch to my harness bridge and have a backup SRT setup on it as well to self rescue in case the main rope breaks and I find myself hanging on the cinch (I hope that is clear). The problem again is advancing the cinch on large diameter trees. Its hard (if not impossible) to get the "back" side of the rope/anchor to slide up the trunk. Any ideas?

3. Is their a good book or video that can teach me the nuances of tree inspection? You mentioned ". . . inspection at the base, clean no rot, no carpenter ant dust, good root flare, no soil compression abuse etc. in the root zone and the main trunk is solid you're good to go in theory." Is there a good resource for that (seeing that i"m self taught and do not know any other climbers)?

Thanks
Stephen
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You have better gear than most pros lolol
 
sdeese said:
YES! This is what I have been thinking about lately. I too had come to the conclusion that trying to "hug the tree" would result in a near free fall to the bottom. I agree that the key to getting it to work is to focus on the "out" as you have mentioned.

Since I never use spikes, the next problem would be "how do I get down" after my primary SRT anchor fails and my flipline/lanyarrd/triangle save works? For that, I do the following (jump to 6:45 to see it ):


BTW.. just to be clear.. that is not me in the video.. I just found it while doing some research.

Thanks again for the detailed response!

Stephen
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Using this technique, you might want to keep the differences between the Duck and the Rolln'Lock in mind. The body of the Duck is not rated, which means you're essentialy relying on two non rated pieces of hardware as your anchor.
Also, I don't get why you don't just choke the emergency descent line around the tree with a steel carabiner.
Which is what the guy in the video should be doing to, because he'll be needing two attachments when cutting.
 
sdeese said:
3. Is their a good book or video that can teach me the nuances of tree inspection? You mentioned ". . . inspection at the base, clean no rot, no carpenter ant dust, good root flare, no soil compression abuse etc. in the root zone and the main trunk is solid you're good to go in theory." Is there a good resource for that (seeing that i"m self taught and do not know any other climbers)?

Thanks
Stephen
Click to expand...

If you go to the Peter Treeman Jenkins (Atlanta GA) web site Tree Climbers International, you'll see he has a DVD available as part their "at home study" basic rec climber course, on the DVD there is a tree assessment section.
https://www.treeclimbing.com/classes/at-home-btcc

-AJ
 
sdeese said:
1. If I am SRT climbing with a flipline wrapped once around the trunk of a white pine (lets say 6' in circumference) and the anchor above fails -- starting a fall -- would the flipline save me (or would I simply fall down the tree). I think a lot about this scenario. It would seem that if the flipline was shortened rather close to the trunk that it would catch and stop me -- albeit after getting a bit scraped up). Does anyone have experience with this?

1b. I know that if you wrap the lanyard/flipline around the trunk 2x, it will catch you. This, however, becomes nearly impossible to advance on larger diameter trees.
Click to expand...

Looking at your young white pine, Pinus strobus photos and seeing that you're in Medford, MA I'm guessing you're on the edge of the Middlesex Fells Res or near it. The Fells were my childhood stomping grounds, I lived ten minutes walking time from the edge of the Fells in Winchester nearish South Border Road. Adults said don't go there it's unsafe, a few bodies used to get dumped along South Border Rd. during the 60's, so-called "gangland slayings", convenient spot to the local Boston area Mafia types and wannabees. Those trees could tell some stories. I found the woods much safer than the street so-to-speak, and between fishing, froggin', snake/turtle wrangling and off-trail woods roaming it was my basic education.

History out of the way...

When I said put your lanyard around the tree during first ascent of an unknown conifer, I'm not worrying about Sudden Chest Rash Syndrome or anything else. It simply adds in " I will not die if my TIP blows out", that's a nice baseline. There are many ways to use your lanyard when you have concern about your TIP quality during ascent. For example I will girth my lanyard around the trunk SRT style and leave enough length to allow a couple pushes on my main line, then reset the lanyard.

If the trunk is too wide or brushy (classic case is navigating through the dead branch zone always between you and the live part of the crown), I'll attach my lanyard to something strong on the trunk. Big Pinus strobus will often have practically petrified large diameter deadwood below the live limbs, a light closed fist chop, a couple kicks, or back hand punches with the butt of your hand saw will tell you rotted or dry and a hand wiggle out from the trunk on the piece will tell you if it is firmly attached to the tree. Good luck trying to cut through dry deadwood like that with a hand saw, the rings are stupidly tight encased in hardened pitch, you'll think your hand saw just went dull. Anyway, I will put my lanyard on those from time-to-time (at the wood/trunk union).

For the lanyard uses described above I'm attaching the lanyard to my harness bridge/center not the side D's. Shock loading is always a concern (fall factor forces) with that type of use. Common sense in everything, in tree climbing we're always taking slack out of our main and backup systems when we're not doing something else. As I frequently yell at ambitous climber trainees when I seem them traipsing around a tree with too much slack, "Tighten up!"
-AJ
 
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Check this out for climbing a super skinny tiny branch conifer. Norway spruce, makes white pine climbing seem like a pleasure cruise. my initial throw got me a 2"-ish diameter branch but I wasn't going to zipper out if it failed, many, many branches captured by my base anchor setting. If there was a large gap between the TIP and small branches below, then yes I could get zippered if the TIP failed. Use your head on line settings in conifers, binoculars are a big help assessing the quality of your rope setting.

You'll see some of the lanyard technique I described above. The Captain Hook technique is a special use for this situation, not my go-to for normal work or rec climbing. Would not climb it for the fun of it, getting a cat out of the top:


-AJ
 
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I don't want the owners 'helping' any more than on a tree-work job.

The rescuer needs to build the rapport with the cat, rather than think its some crazy predator coming after it. Animals are confused by helmets, ear muffs, visors, clinking stuff.

It doesn't help either to shine a spotlight on the cat or bird (my last pet rescue was a conure, in the cold, blowing rain). Some people!?!?


You always hear about people putting a can of tuna at the base of the tree, never them playing with the cat's favorite toy, or laying on a mattress at the base of the tree with a digital clock on 2:00... time to walk on sleeping humans.
 
JeffGu said:
Oh, you know as well as I do that he'll be on here in a week saying, "So, my neighbor wants me to take down this huge Guatamalan Dingleberry Tree in his garden, next to the spa..."
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10/4, this pattern has been repeated many times in the history of the Buzz. The most familiar one is:

"Hi I'm an engineer and I'm very smart. I've got a massive tree in my front yard that I'm going to take down so I'll save money. I've got it all figured out and I've got a couple brand spanking new saws to make it happen. I don't know much about using saws but I looked it all up on the interwebs and I'm ready to go. I'm teaching myself to climb and must admit I'm pretty awesome at teaching myself this obvious skill. Did I mention I'm very smart? I have a few questions but don't challenge me on my intelligence because I'm very smart. Thank you in advance."

100% parody with massive grains of truth. Stay humble, I get humbled by trees several times a day.
-AJ
 
southsoundtree said:
I don't want the owners 'helping' any more than on a tree-work job.

The rescuer needs to build the rapport with the cat, rather than think its some crazy predator coming after it. Animals are confused by helmets, ear muffs, visors, clinking stuff.

It doesn't help either to shine a spotlight on the cat or bird (my last pet rescue was a conure, in the cold, blowing rain). Some people!?!?


You always hear about people putting a can of tuna at the base of the tree, never them playing with the cat's favorite toy, or laying on a mattress at the base of the tree with a digital clock on 2:00... time to walk on sleeping humans.
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Absolutely!!! I'm finally learning this lesson, last two rescues I requested the owner to not talk to the cat, it is making the cat more anxious, I need calm to make this happen, I'll do the talking.

I'm surprised JeffGu hasn't commented on the awesome cat butt shot as I stuffed it in the bag. Clock is ticking, tick-tock.
-AJ
 
moss said:
Looking at your young white pine, Pinus strobus photos and seeing that you're in Medford, MA I'm guessing you're on the edge of the Middlesex Fells Res or near it. The Fells were my childhood stomping grounds, I lived ten minutes walking time from the edge of the Fells in Winchester nearish South Border Road. Adults said don't go there it's unsafe, a few bodies used to get dumped along South Border Rd. during the 60's, so-called "gangland slayings", convenient spot to the local Boston area Mafia types and wannabees. Those trees could tell some stories. I found the woods much safer than the street so-to-speak, and between fishing, froggin', snake/turtle wrangling and off-trail woods roaming it was my basic education.

History out of the way...

When I said put your lanyard around the tree during first ascent of an unknown conifer, I'm not worrying about Sudden Chest Rash Syndrome or anything else. It simply adds in " I will not die if my TIP blows out", that's a nice baseline. There are many ways to use your lanyard when you have concern about your TIP quality during ascent. For example I will girth my lanyard around the trunk SRT style and leave enough length to allow a couple pushes on my main line, then reset the lanyard.

If the trunk is too wide or brushy (classic case is navigating through the dead branch zone always between you and the live part of the crown), I'll attach my lanyard to something strong on the trunk. Big Pinus strobus will often have practically petrified large diameter deadwood below the live limbs, a light closed fist chop, a couple kicks, or back hand punches with the butt of your hand saw will tell you rotted or dry and a hand wiggle out from the trunk on the piece will tell you if it is firmly attached to the tree. Good luck trying to cut through dry deadwood like that with a hand saw, the rings are stupidly tight encased in hardened pitch, you'll think your hand saw just went dull. Anyway, I will put my lanyard on those from time-to-time (at the wood/trunk union).

For the lanyard uses described above I'm attaching the lanyard to my harness bridge/center not the side D's. Shock loading is always a concern (fall factor forces) with that type of use. Common sense in everything, in tree climbing we're always taking slack out of our main and backup systems when we're not doing something else. As I frequently yell at ambitous climber trainees when I seem them traipsing around a tree with too much slack, "Tighten up!"
-AJ
Click to expand...


LOL! That is EXACTLY where that tree is located. How crazy is that?
Yea... I know about the dead bodies being dumped there... I'm the one who dumped them there (dudes kept messing with my base anchor while I was climbing). [Note to Big Brother: I"m just kidding here]

You said "For example I will girth my lanyard around the trunk SRT style and leave enough length to allow a couple pushes on my main line, then reset the lanyard.". That is what I do with the snake anchor girth hitched around the trunk and attached to my bridge. Since the snake anchor has several attachment points, i attach my decender just above where I clip into the snake anchor. The nice thing about this is that if I do have a primary anchor failure, and end up with "Sudden Chest Rash Syndrome", I can quickly decend without any additional setup.
 
A branch from the tree you're in can be a helpful tool for advancing the rope to a higher crotch, or snagging one that is overhead and not shaking down.

I'll advance a trunk-choke canopy anchor with a steel biner and possibly added throw-weight.

A remotely-set choke will not be exactly like a choke that is set right in front of you. The choke will be more of an oval than circle. Not a bad thing, just different. As you get closer, you can unweight the climbing line, and flick it to get it tighter/ more circular.

When descending off a trunk-choke with a 'pull-down' line attached to the Running-bowline of the trunk-choke, I want the choke to be very oval-shaped. I'll descend a bit from the choke-point on my lanyard, and then load the climbing line. This will make it easier to pull down. Test your pull-down line's ability to open the choke before descending.

A flatter rope-angle when pulling down from the ground (move away from the tree) opens the choke more easily.

I'll generally choke with a steel biner for easier pulling-down/ ease.

Sometimes, when pulling down an SRT-choke, it's better to pull down into larger trunk wood/ thicker bark, rather than pulling down from a high-point with thin bark, especially easily damaged thin bark. Lose-Lose...tree damage and sap on rope.
 
sdeese said:
LOL! That is EXACTLY where that tree is located. How crazy is that?
Yea... I know about the dead bodies being dumped there... I'm the one who dumped them there (dudes kept messing with my base anchor while I was climbing). [Note to Big Brother: I"m just kidding here]

You said "For example I will girth my lanyard around the trunk SRT style and leave enough length to allow a couple pushes on my main line, then reset the lanyard.". That is what I do with the snake anchor girth hitched around the trunk and attached to my bridge. Since the snake anchor has several attachment points, i attach my decender just above where I clip into the snake anchor. The nice thing about this is that if I do have a primary anchor failure, and end up with "Sudden Chest Rash Syndrome", I can quickly decend without any additional setup.
Click to expand...

There are a few big whites in the Fells, mostly on the lower edges and around woods wetlands, most of it being rocky upland and chronically burned during droughts keeps the pines and everything else stunted. Excellent ruffed grouse habitat though. There are some super cool/gnarly pitch pine on a few of the rocky hilltops, not big trees but super fun to climb and great views. Love the place.
-AJ
 
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moss said:
...surprised JeffGu hasn't commented on the awesome cat butt shot...
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Well, I don't mind a video with a little p*$$y in it... but too much pine oil and meowing going on there. You did an awesome job of not strangling it for complaining nonstop about its predicament. You'd think you were the one that put the cat up there, form the sound of her.

She was actually pretty good about not being a total pain. That's a lucky one, you got. I usually end up with the ones that start hissing, with their fur straight out, when I get close.
 
So why are you using a wire core lanyard tho? Those things are trash and used for its cut resistance. Use rope, if you like stiff try a kernmantle type like sterling htp or tri-tech.
 
JeffGu said:
Oh, you know as well as I do that he'll be on here in a week saying, "So, my neighbor wants me to take down this huge Guatamalan Dingleberry Tree in his garden, next to the spa..."
Click to expand...
Right, I heard that loud and clear. I had not rec climbed in my own trees twice before the damn neighbors on both sides were trying to talk me into pruning dead lilmbs over their house/patio/garage, etc. or take down huge dead/dying trees entirely.
 
Mattfitz said:
You have better gear than most pros lolol
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Reminds me of an encounter. I don't have quite the impressive collection of saddle bling sdeese has but still have mostly cutting edge gear now for rec climbing, ZZ/RW, BDB, hook, several colourful lanyards, nice selection of biners, etc. and it was quite embarrassing to run across one of our local pro arborists one day on a climb. He is younger than me but very Old School. I mean old worn spurs and a ragged flip line, and a very rough safety line with what I think was a simple tautline hitch. His battered (and mostly leather) saddle itself looked like it went thru the Civil War on the losing side. He looked at all my shiny stuff and just shook his head. Then he ran up the tree like a monkey without even looking back. I felt like just going home and going back to bed.
 
Burrapeg said:
Reminds me of an encounter. I don't have quite the impressive collection of saddle bling sdeese has but still have mostly cutting edge gear now for rec climbing, ZZ/RW, BDB, hook, several colourful lanyards, nice selection of biners, etc. and it was quite embarrassing to run across one of our local pro arborists one day on a climb. He is younger than me but very Old School. I mean old worn spurs and a ragged flip line, and a very rough safety line with what I think was a simple tautline hitch. His battered (and mostly leather) saddle itself looked like it went thru the Civil War on the losing side. He looked at all my shiny stuff and just shook his head. Then he ran up the tree like a monkey without even looking back. I felt like just going home and going back to bed.
Click to expand...


Oh wow.... old worn spurs, ragged flipline, rough safety line, battered Civil War losing saddle? He is only missing one piece of gear: https://www.livescience.com/41576-tongue-controlled-wheelchair-paralysis.html. Next time you see him, ask him how that is working out for him.

I learned back in my paragliding/hang gliding days that its worth spending the money on equipment that can help you stay safe.
 
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