How Small a Diameter is Safe to Climb High (Conifier)

[sdeese]

I did this a few times early in my career. I stopped after coasting 25 feet to the ground for a gentle landing after one of the branches supporting me snapped. It was a dying granddaddy live oak that I didn't know was dying. The branches were brittle. Out that far, the branches are pretty small. Setting a line like that goes against your predisposition for safety because you can't verify what it is set over, and it's probably set over some really small diameter stuff. I'm sure you have arrived at this conclusion in your subconscious. Hopefully this helps formalize it a bit...

Ahhhh.. yes... I was thinking that if the first branch failed, there would be stronger branches below to catch.. but the next branch strong enough may be 25' down (if its a tall canapoy) resulting in nasty jerk (or ground fall if less than 25' off the ground). I'm glad I asked.

 

[sdeese]

Ahhhh.. yes... I was thinking that if the first branch failed, there would be stronger branches below to catch.. but the next branch strong enough may be 25' down (if its a tall canapoy) resulting in nasty jerk (or ground fall if less than 25' off the ground). I'm glad I asked.

I did this a few times early in my career. I stopped after coasting 25 feet to the ground for a gentle landing after one of the branches supporting me snapped. It was a dying granddaddy live oak that I didn't know was dying. The branches were brittle. Out that far, the branches are pretty small. Setting a line like that goes against your predisposition for safety because you can't verify what it is set over, and it's probably set over some really small diameter stuff. I'm sure you have arrived at this conclusion in your subconscious. Hopefully this helps formalize it a bit...

 

[evo]

Evo,

Thank you for your response.

Sorry for being dense.. but when you say "nab 3-4 limbs for the PSP" does that mean having to rope hanging over 3-4 limbs simultaneously (or have 2-3 limbs below the one you are looped over)?

Also, what do you think about shooting a long throw line completely over the entire canopy (centered on the stem) and use a base anchor? I would think that would capture the maximum number of potential backup branches? Does anyone do this?

Thanks
Stephen

Evo,

Thank you for your response.

Sorry for being dense.. but when you say "nab 3-4 limbs for the PSP" does that mean having to rope hanging over 3-4 limbs simultaneously (or have 2-3 limbs below the one you are looped over)?


Yes. And sometimes. If climbing SRT best to have a bomber 3-4 limbs that your PSP is actively engaged. More below is good for back up

Also, what do you think about shooting a long throw line completely over the entire canopy (centered on the stem) and use a base anchor? I would think that would capture the maximum number of potential backup branches? Does anyone do this?

As others stated, plus I try to shoot for the highest point where I can CLEARLY see what the rope is over. I have at times just gone for shooting straight over. It’s a bouncy climb at best, and there is a chance if those small limbs break out your rope will fall further out the canopy

Thanks
Stephen
[/QUOTE]

 

[JeffGu]

...near free fall to the bottom

Yeah, and adding to the problem is our tendency (at least on spurs) to climb the backside (opposite the lean) of the tree. The lanyard can now free fall if it loses it's friction/tension.

But, you'll sort it all out. Put a climb line in a tree, and fiddle with it about three or four feet off the ground. And keep thinking about this stuff, because it really is important. Climb safe.

 

[LordFarkwad]

YES! This is what I have been thinking about lately. I too had come to the conclusion that trying to "hug the tree" would result in a near free fall to the bottom. I agree that the key to getting it to work is to focus on the "out" as you have mentioned.

Since I never use spikes, the next problem would be "how do I get down" after my primary SRT anchor fails and my flipline/lanyarrd/triangle save works? For that, I do the following (jump to 6:45 to see it ):

BTW.. just to be clear.. that is not me in the video.. I just found it while doing some research.

Thanks again for the detailed response!

Stephen

Stephen, how are you implementing what's shown in that video? That's pretty gear-intensive, yeah? In your hypothetical PSP-failure scenario (where the branch or branches forming the PSP fail and you are caught by your lanyard), would it be possible to simply pull enough slack into your climbline to just cinch it around the trunk at the point you're at? Then you could go ahead and descend on the remaining tail.

Edit: there are multiple ways to form a midline cinching SRT anchor, some involving hardware, others rope-only. Quickies, quick links, etc., with a midline loop knot of some sort, AB, Farmer's Loop, etc. Or you could pull a bight of climbline if you've got enough slack, and and tie an RB or whatever cinching knot you would like, with the bight.

 

[sdeese]

Stephen, how are you implementing what's shown in that video? That's pretty gear-intensive, yeah? In your hypothetical PSP-failure scenario (where the branch or branches forming the PSP fail and you are caught by your lanyard), would it be possible to simply pull enough slack into your climbline to just cinch it around the trunk at the point you're at? Then you could go ahead and descend on the remaining tail.

Edit: there are multiple ways to form a midline cinching SRT anchor, some involving hardware, others rope-only. Quickies, quick links, etc., with a midline loop knot of some sort, AB, Farmer's Loop, etc. Or you could pull a bight of climbline if you've got enough slack, and and tie an RB or whatever cinching knot you would like, with the bight.

Hi LordFarkward (love the name),

Yes. I agree. It is a bit gear intensive. To be clear, when climbing with this setup, I use the following:

Primary: SRT on Akimbo with foot ascender and knee ascender

Backup: Steel core flipline with 2 Kong Ducks (or CT Roll n Locks) as seen in the video. A Petzl rig decender is attached to the 2 Kong Ducks as shown in the video with 120' of 11.5 mm rope that I bring up in a bag on my harness.

So.. if my Primary SRT anchor fails:
1. I do the triangle thing that JeffGu suggested above to stop on my flipline.
2. I hope that I don't get hit by whatever large branch just failed as my primary anchor as it falls to the ground.
3. I push the 2 Kong Ducks forward. Release the flipline from the hip attachment points on my harness.
4. Rapel on the Petzl Rig.

The advantage of the setup is:
1. the Kong Ducks make it easy to choke/un-choke the trunk... so I do it often (which means I'm more likely not to have to pull off the triangle thing on a fall... as I may be already nearly choked).

2. It requires very little fuss after a primary failure. I can get down quick, because I might likely be injured (by the falling primary anchor).

I'm open to feekback on this approach. Again, I'm totally self taught and looking for ways to be safe.

As to your question : "would it be possible to simply pull enough slack into your climbline to just cinch it around the trunk at the point you're at? Then you could go ahead and descend on the remaining tail." I agree that would work. Since you would still have the primary line stuck in your SRT device.

One of my fears is how hard the falling primary anchor limb would jerk your SRT device (Akimbo) -- and you -- when it falls below you (while you are simultaniously trying to stop on your flipline). This is where having a base anchor may be better... the line is not cinched around the branch and thus would not be pulled down with it on its way down.

Thoughts?

Thanks
Stephen

 

[sdeese]

Yeah, and adding to the problem is our tendency (at least on spurs) to climb the backside (opposite the lean) of the tree. The lanyard can now free fall if it loses it's friction/tension.

But, you'll sort it all out. Put a climb line in a tree, and fiddle with it about three or four feet off the ground. And keep thinking about this stuff, because it really is important. Climb safe.

Excellent point. I have yet to climb a lot of leaning trees (as I'm not knowledgeable enough to know how much lean is too much lean). On the couple that I have climbed with a slight lean, I've setup on the downhill side of the lean. At the time I hadn't thought about your point... but doing so helps the whole flipline-save thing.

 

[JeffGu]

Yeah, actually helps with that... but is more work advancing the flipline. Small price to pay, at least until you're very comfortable with being able to minimize the pain of an "Oh, shit!" moment.

 

[LordFarkwad]

Hi LordFarkward (love the name),

Yes. I agree. It is a bit gear intensive. To be clear, when climbing with this setup, I use the following:

Primary: SRT on Akimbo with foot ascender and knee ascender

Backup: Steel core flipline with 2 Kong Ducks (or CT Roll n Locks) as seen in the video. A Petzl rig decender is attached to the 2 Kong Ducks as shown in the video with 120' of 11.5 mm rope that I bring up in a bag on my harness.

So.. if my Primary SRT anchor fails:
1. I do the triangle thing that JeffGu suggested above to stop on my flipline.
2. I hope that I don't get hit by whatever large branch just failed as my primary anchor as it falls to the ground.
3. I push the 2 Kong Ducks forward. Release the flipline from the hip attachment points on my harness.
4. Rapel on the Petzl Rig.

The advantage of the setup is:
1. the Kong Ducks make it easy to choke/un-choke the trunk... so I do it often (which means I'm more likely not to have to pull off the triangle thing on a fall... as I may be already nearly choked).

2. It requires very little fuss after a primary failure. I can get down quick, because I might likely be injured (by the falling primary anchor).

I'm open to feekback on this approach. Again, I'm totally self taught and looking for ways to be safe.

As to your question : "would it be possible to simply pull enough slack into your climbline to just cinch it around the trunk at the point you're at? Then you could go ahead and descend on the remaining tail." I agree that would work. Since you would still have the primary line stuck in your SRT device.

One of my fears is how hard the falling primary anchor limb would jerk your SRT device (Akimbo) -- and you -- when it falls below you (while you are simultaniously trying to stop on your flipline). This is where having a base anchor may be better... the line is not cinched around the branch and thus would not be pulled down with it on its way down.

Thoughts?

Thanks
Stephen

Ah that makes sense - I was imagining a failed PSP for a base anchored setup, this you wouldn't get any jerk from the failed limb. You also wouldn't necessarily have a problem simply continuing to ascend on the new PSP (or descend).

 

[LordFarkwad]

Despite the theoretical max of 2x your body weight being placed on the PSP (in the case of an exact 180deg rope angle around the completely frictionless limb) I do like the support point redundancy inherent in a base anchored system. It's what I use 99% of the time (and probably shouldn't, just so I'm more familiar with setting and using canopy anchors). Add to that, that in the case of multiple limbs being utilized as a PSP as @evo mentioned with a basal anchored setup, the on-paper/theoretical 2x weight application can be mitigated so that multiple limbs together are reducing the load that any individual limb would see were it solely supporting your bodyweight.

Only downsides for a rec climber might be that it's a little more difficult/complex to advance, and uses 2x the rope, yeah?

 

[evo]

Despite the theoretical max of 2x your body weight being placed on the PSP (in the case of an exact 180deg rope angle around the completely frictionless limb) I do like the support point redundancy inherent in a base anchored system. It's what I use 99% of the time (and probably shouldn't, just so I'm more familiar with setting and using canopy anchors). Add to that, that in the case of multiple limbs being utilized as a PSP as @evo mentioned with a basal anchored setup, the on-paper/theoretical 2x weight application can be mitigated so that multiple limbs together are reducing the load that any individual limb would see were it solely supporting your bodyweight.

Only downsides for a rec climber might be that it's a little more difficult/complex to advance, and uses 2x the rope, yeah?

The theoretical x2 really doesn't apply to base tied systems well. It's more important to note the increased force generated by dynamically loading the line just by climbing on it. Yes a base tie will add to that at the PSP point but it's rarely anything close to x2.
It would be interesting for some one to develop a test for it? Perhaps hoist up a log with a few limbs and a couple of dynamometers one on the base anchor and one on the hoisted log set up with a line going over a few stubs at a wide angle

 

[colb]

Yeah, and adding to the problem is our tendency (at least on spurs) to climb the backside (opposite the lean) of the tree. The lanyard can now free fall if it loses it's friction/tension.

But, you'll sort it all out. Put a climb line in a tree, and fiddle with it about three or four feet off the ground. And keep thinking about this stuff, because it really is important. Climb safe.

Why you keep talking to this rec guy about spurs, @JeffGu ? Luv you big guy.

 

[colb]

Ahhhh.. yes... I was thinking that if the first branch failed, there would be stronger branches below to catch.. but the next branch strong enough may be 25' down (if its a tall canapoy) resulting in nasty jerk (or ground fall if less than 25' off the ground). I'm glad I asked.

I just can't always verify what I'm actually tied in to when I rigged up like that. I was supposing that all those limbs would support me, but that is not necessarily the case. You could be draped over fluff between two main leaders, like you are suggesting, with a 25' fall coming up. Worse, since the line is doubled you will fall twice the length of the distance to the crotch.

 

[LordFarkwad]

The theoretical x2 really doesn't apply to base tied systems well. It's more important to note the increased force generated by dynamically loading the line just by climbing on it. Yes a base tie will add to that at the PSP point but it's rarely anything close to x2.
It would be interesting for some one to develop a test for it? Perhaps hoist up a log with a few limbs and a couple of dynamometers one on the base anchor and one on the hoisted log set up with a line going over a few stubs at a wide angle

The first part is what I was trying to get at by saying 'completely frictionless' - it never actually happens, yeah? I'm pretty sure someone has used an Enforcer and documented the real forces in their test sample basal anchor. Mumford, perhaps? I think he's the one that always has those things hanging around in his tree lab in the videos, possibly?

Depending on how I'm feeling, I'll usually do Mumford's (?) thing from a video, where he uses a lanyard to set up a quick 2:1 MA system to pull down with 2x the climber's weight on the end of the climbing line.

 

[SomethingWitty]

Your flipline will probably catch you when you fall, try rappeling with it on and you'll see what catches and what doesn't. This of course depends on the stem diameter too, so you might slide down a couple of feet/inches until you hit the next branch.

On a different note: it seems as though we rec climbers are a little more safety concious in general, I too feel a lot better when I have a second TIP. I guess this might be due to the absence of stress and pressure: I tend to take a lot of time just taking in my surroundings while climbing alone. I can also recommend you to find somebody to climb with: it'll make you a better climber.

It stems from an absence of rigging. It's not that we are less safety conscious as pros.
We have chances to see what sort of weights the trees can actually support consistently. I've broken a couple of rigging points in my career, and I could have sworn I would have broken dozens before I actually loaded them... and I did it anyway. And most of them held.

There are great arborists all up and down the coast. Find one and make buds. It will make your skill set develop much more quickly and painlessly than a forum can, although the internet is a great resource to supplement actual instruction.

 

[rico]

Less fear, overthinking, and paralysis by over analysis. More climbing!

 

[evo]

Less fear, overthinking, and paralysis by over analysis. More climbing!

I think you mean “shut up and climb the damn tree already”

 

[moss]

Stephen, I've got a small group of climbers that gets together on a regular basis and climbs in the general Boston area., feel free to PM and we'll get you in on our climbs, which include white pine. I've got some tasty big ones at my location just northwest of Boston inside 495.
-AJ

 

[moss]

We climb big whites no matter what ;-)

View from the top in winter, Mt Monadnock in southern New Hampshire, my camera's optical zoom maxed out 32x, a spec on the horizon without magnification:

 

[southsoundtree]

Are these not Northern, but Western White Pine?/ Medford, OR? or a different Medford?