this is what happens when you tip tie a large vertical limb

TreeFan.

Simple start... Leave cameras at home.

...take down fence panels.

...Dump large pieces onto piles of brush.

...Keep workers out from area where branches can break off while rigging.

...Leave fancy stuff at home.

...Have competent workers.

...don't trust life and limb to a guy worried about the playset who needs instruction.
 
I pretty sure skill beats PPE on the coolness meter any day.

Cool doesn't always get you home for dinner... Every day you stay in this business, the minute odds of some freak thing happening, even if you are highly skilled, builds and builds and builds.. I AM in year 36 and still have all my fingers and toes... hard hat only saved my life once.... That was $100 well spent!
 
So Daniel -or others, could you share a few more details about how you might have handled this given situation (and not just avoided it by different earlier rigging)? Sounds as though you like the idea of a slash cut, but would you have still gone with such a large, tip-tied pick and just have the groundsman lower it more quickly or some other approach? (I've been in tree work about as long as "Human" but with a really great company. The physics of tip-tying is still a bit tricky for me, even though I taught college physics for 28 years before getting into tree work.)
That's a good question...

My tree climbing mentor and I went out to dinner last night. He lives in LA and flies multi million dollar jets for a living now... We didn't really talk trees much, but subject of this video did come up... When I first watched this video, I wondered "why "... WHY did he tip tie it... You better have a good reason.... the whole point of starting this thread is that tip tying can put you in a very dangerous situation.. The only reason I can see in the video is the play house... of course he may have just been playing to the camera.. But let's say it was the play house he was trying to avoid... How is that best accomplished?

While I normally favor a "go big or go home" mentality, one of the object of that is to reduce the number of pieces being rigged and overall number of cuts made. Human climbed out on that branch and made all those cuts to strip the brush... I AM guessing he bombed them.... Always tough to say with certainty because I wasn't there: and most likely would have been better and easier to take the branch in two cuts... He was already out there, leave the tips, tie the rope where it was tied .. come back 10-15 feet and cut it... Make sure the piece is slightly tip heavy, and it will go down and away... every time... The do the same with the second piece, make sure its tip heavy and watch it go down and away...

Another option on a big limb like that is to use a redirect sling and ring or shackle , half way out on the limb, then simply but tie and let the piece hang... then cut off a short piece off the new end (with the redirect sling on it) and let the two pieces swing out together, below the primary overhead rigging point.. That would have the same effect of taking the limb in two... it just takes a lot of the swing out of the tips.... That technique is mostly needed from the bucket when the tips want to swing at the op, bucket, boom...
 
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Oh Ya,
If he had actually used that but line, it could have controlled the movement of the but and kept the piece from helicoptering... Anyone that thinks his groundie should have let it run needs a crash course in tree rigging...

true of false: it's bad to rig pieces so you need to depend on your groundie to keep you from dying???
 
Oh Ya,
If he had actually used that but line, it could have controlled the movement of the but and kept the piece from helicoptering... Anyone that thinks his groundie should have let it run needs a crash course in tree rigging...

true of false: it's bad to rig pieces so you need to depend on your groundie to keep you from dying???
False. it's bad to do it if your not sure the guy is qualified to do or understand what it is your rigging
 
How often you as a climber need to put your life in the groundies hands is inversely proportional to your rigging skills and common sense... I personally like to breathe.... Even if I trust the groundie and know he has great skill, I still wouldn't put myself in that vulnerable situation unless absolutely necessary. Even the most experienced and skilled groundie can make a mistake... why put your life at risk needlessly?
 
So .... The physics of tip-tying is still a bit tricky for me, even though I taught college physics for 28 years before getting into tree work.)

Sounds like you have an interesting story... career change from college professor to tree man at age 50+???

Tip tying is not that complicated.... When the piece is tip tied, the but goes down and the tips go up... If the rigging line is in line with the limb (directly above the limb/ crotch), as the but drops, the tips are going to lift up and slam directly back into the tree above the crotch, which puts the climber at some risk, as that's where he just made the cut... If the tips have not been cut off that looks like lots of brush coming right up into your face, which can hurt , but probably isn't going to kill you... With but tying , the tip goes down and the but goes down.. so it all ends up below you, which is very good for safety...

So in general tip tying is only more useful than dangerous when you need to swing a piece. (Some guys like to rig upright wood with a tip tie to keep it as static as possible, but that's a different subject). When there is something like another tree or a house right under a large limb, rather than climb out to the tips and take it in small enough pieces to clear the obstacle, you can use a tip tie to swing the entire piece away from the obstacle BEFORE it drops. When the rigging line is offset from the limb, the limb will swing that way as it starts to move.

When done right (combination of good rigging set up and a good cut) it looks smooth and sweet... the tip of the limb starts to sweep (or arch) slowly down and to the side, as it does it puts more and more weight on the line, until the full weight of the tips are on line as it comes to rest directly under the rigging point before separation at the cut. When the cut is finished, the piece slowly see-saws to stasis directly under the overhead rigging point. Its like a ballet... Anyone that would like to see some video PM me.. Depending on the distance of the offset and the size of the piece and how much clearance is needed, the ground man can let the rope run a lot, some, or none.. When the rigging line is pre-tensioned and positioned properly you can get the limb to swing 90-180º without dropping at all, which is pretty cool the first time you see it happen. This can also be done with a "near balance point" tie off (slightly tip heavy)... the idea is to be able to get enough lift on the limb to allow the hinge to function without failure until the face fully closes... Depending onthe weight of the limb and the ability to pretension the line, sometimes you got to go out further and tip tie it. I prefer a near balance point tie off whenever possible (which is almost always).

What makes tip tying dangerous is that the tip(s) are going to come up... Up is where the climber is. If there is a large offset from the tie off point to the overhead rigging point, the limb is going to swing wildly past the plumb line of the rigging point, and then slam back into the tree on the back swing. Often times a large piece will helicopter as it swings out and come all the way around the back side of the tree, so if the climber doesn't move he can get hit in the back of the head. Human's near death video is a perfect example of that.. If the tree still has a lot of limbs on the back or side, they can act as a blocker to protect the climber from getting hit, which I have used in the past, but generally its best to avoid that helicoptering, back swing, and slam.

Hope that helps... generally best to avoid tip tie, especially on anything big like, unless its absolutely needed, and then should only be done by an highly experienced climber. I mentioned the non-functioning but line in the comments on youtube. Human replied that he thought there would be enough friction on the line (sounds like just from a trunk wrap or two without anyone holding it).. That was a miscalculation that almost cost him his life. An experienced climber would have known that a little friction isn't going to retard the movement of such a massive piece. He's lucky to have survived that one and we should be happy to have the video, a perfect example of what NOT to do.
 
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I can't comment in an intelligent way about the use of various methods for tip tie of limbs and tress sections. I only use that method in a few rare cases. As such I've only used it a few times. Daniel's description is exactly why. I have a very good grasp on physics, and I am pretty darn good at predicting what an object will do once in motion. However, predicting the trajectory of a tip tied limb as it loads a tie in point (TIP), is beyond me in many cases. I don't think a million words could do it for me. Videos are fine, but they all contain specific circumstances that may or may not produce repeatable results if replication was attempted. I know how to avoid and prevent what happened to Human, I don't know how to predict it would happen if I used his method.

I have used it, with a tie in quite close to the top, to float sections away from the cut and lower them to the ground. I've only done it with very vertical sections, and with a TIP nearly directly above the section. In that fashion it looks like a crane lift, except the section isn't carried far away after the cut. Even then the method takes coordination because the cut has to leave a very weak "snap" and the preload on the rigging has to be pretty spot on.

For anything remotely vertical, I've tide close to the center of mass if I don't want to tie closer to the cut. I've had helicoptering, but the motion is predictable because it seems to avoid the "whipping mass" flinging" thing that happens when you tip tie.
 

Climber says that's how people get injured... meaning when the ground man doesn't let it run....

There is nothing he can do about the groundie's actions.. only thing he can do is set up the rigging so he doesn;t need the groundie to let it run...

and to his (Lawrence Shulz) credit here, he was ready and moved quickly out of the way which he no doubt had planned out ahead of time in case the groundie didn't let it run, so he wasn't really in danger, it just looked real bad...
 
How often you as a climber need to put your life in the groundies hands is inversely proportional to your rigging skills and common sense... I personally like to breathe.... Even if I trust the groundie and know he has great skill, I still wouldn't put myself in that vulnerable situation unless absolutely necessary. Even the most experienced and skilled groundie can make a mistake... why put your life at risk needlessly?

Anyone who has been in this business for very long and hasn't come to realize this should consider playing the lottery.
 
Sounds like you have an interesting story... career change from college professor to tree man at age 50+???

Tip tying is not that complicated.... When the piece is tip tied, the but goes down and the tips go up...

Thanks Daniel, and others, for the responses. Looks like it is good that I haven't used tip-tying much. The first time I used it on a good-sized limb I was trying to sneak it by some live limbs below. I expected the butt to drop, but instead it sort of slid down toward the trunk and got stuck in a crotch. Probably bad cutting technique on my part.

As for my story -- Took advantage of an early retirement offer to pursue what I call "a higher-level position in cutting-edge, applied physics" at age 60. Haven't regretted it for a moment. Changes of pace and challenges seem to be good for this older brain and body.
 
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Thanks Daniel, and others, for the responses. Looks like it is good that I haven't used tip-tying much. The first time I used it on a good-sized limb I was trying to sneak it by some live limbs below. I expected the butt to drop, but instead it sort of slid down toward the trunk and got stuck in a crotch. Probably bad cutting technique on my part.

As for my story -- Took advantage of an early retirement offer to pursue what I call "a higher-level position in cutting-edge, applied physics" at age 60. Haven't regretted it for a moment. Changes of pace and challenges seem to be good for this older brain and body.
Awesome.....
 
Living proof that all that fly looking, super cool, shiny PPE won’t help much if you are doing stupid shit. Moral of the story-don’t do stupid shit!


Yes AND he probably would have died, even from the glancing blow if he wasn't wearing a hard hat.... That baseball bat was 20' long and 14" thick....

I didn't wear a hard hat for many many years, and never took more than a scratch... Thinking the same thing... Since I started wearing the hat I've had two or three situations where it saved some serious injury, Probably would have died once without it.. Little broken limb on a fir fell maybe 25-30 ' and speared me in the back of the hard hat while I was looking down at the cut... Hard hat took the full impact right at the brain stem, and it still hit me hard enough to blur my vision and daze me for a few seconds... While I was in a hurry and didn't take the time to look up and see that the pull line had broken the limb, I wouldn't necessarily call that stupid.

The other time was 100% not on me.. Crane op swung the sling with a big shackle right at me... Was coming right for the back of my neck and I managed to duck the hat down to meet the blow.. That would have just sucked.. probably no hospitalization....

The other thing I like about hard hats is that they have muffs so you are never without hearing protection...
 
I've had a few really close calls from those "wtf was I thinking!?" Moments. Thankfully there weren't cameras rolling! Lol. If he learns a hard lesson and becomes a better Arborist because of it then more power to him. If he doesn't, then this is surely going to happen again.
 
Cool doesn't always get you home for dinner... Every day you stay in this business, the minute odds of some freak thing happening, even if you are highly skilled, builds and builds and builds.. I AM in year 36 and still have all my fingers and toes... hard hat only saved my life once.... That was $100 well spent!
I stand by the statement whole heartedly. Your skills, and the skills of those you work with will always be your first line of defense against injury. All that cool shiny PPE is just the icing on the cake, but skill trumps all when it comes to safety.
 
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Yep. I have seen my fair share of PPE wearing, under skilled guys get hurt. I haven't seen many highly skilled (PPE wearing or otherwise) folks get hurt. Why is that?
 
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If you're highly skilled and have good judgment, you are more likely to say no to a boss. You're more self-confident, have been through more scrapes, and are older.

If you're older and a newbie, it's probably (not always) that you're a lower-prospect-having laborer, with less abilities.

Rico, working for someone else adds a lot of pressure. If you're not feeling it, or I'm not feeling it, we can easily change gears, postpone, etc. Employees are often at the mercy of their bosses.
 

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