Zeppelin Hitch

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i played with this over weekend; i kinda still like a ButterFly as a Bend. Just make the ends finish were the loop of the ButterFly would be. The loop is isolated from the line by design, and this is a good way to isolate a weakened piece of line, or the joining of 2 seperate lines i think.

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Here's what you're referring to:
http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/butterflybend.html

Yep, I like it, too. It's not quite as secure as a Rosendahl/Zeppelin bend, but it's still pretty secure and isn't too tough to tie. But it's not a two-fer. In other words, even if you know the Butterfly Loop, you'll still probably have to learn how to tie the Butterfly Bend separately.
 
you can back up the buttefly bend easily with an overhand, or eight, or two overhands, or whatever

theres a picture in ROCK magazine illustrating a technique for long raps where you tie two rope together...showing how you can tie a butterfly bend and then take the tails (what would be the loop section) and tie them together with an 8 bend...it gives you a loop to clip into while passing the knot.
 
i do kinda consider a ButterFly as a 2 fer 1 lesson. i like the making it starting with a roundTurn+ on palm. MyTreeLessons\Butterfly Knot

i think that real working class knots have a round turn base; like this crossed round turn on the palm. the round turn strategy over a single turn strategy giving many more advantages of just not coming around a mount/host. The meeting of equal and opposite reactions, giving no appreciable reduction in force to self trap in a single turn. A round turn base giving a real reduction in force in line, and grip on host too; to self trap etc. The simplicity of an anchor hitch as a round turn, trapping it's own tail as another example; made around the line itself to form eye constituting a barrel/double fisherman's.
 
Re: Zeppelin Bend

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there is a LOOP version of the zeppelin which works as a hitch.

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This is a loop knot, not a hitch.

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I am curious if it is regarded as safe for use in life support.

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The Zeppelin bend is formed with two interlocking overhand knots. While they're less likely to overtighten upon loading because they don't "cinch" together like the two overhands of a fisherman's bend, that also makes them less secure. I would not use this knot for life support.

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I have used this for life support...join two ropes with the Zeppalin with figure 8s in each tail

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you can back up the buttefly bend easily with an overhand, or eight, or two overhands

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Of course, you can take any insecure knot and make it more secure by tying a secondary knot on the tails, but why use two knots when one will do?

For life support, nothing beats the double fisherman's bend - and it should not tighten excessively under body weight. If untying is a problem, then use a figure-8 bend (or followthrough). It is also a very secure knot, but the extra turns of the figure-8 make it easier to untie after loading.

- Robert
 
Re: Zeppelin Bend

Robert,

If you were tying two ropes together (because one was too short), what knot would you use? Just to be more specific, I'm talking about a rigging scenario in which large loads may be encountered and untying the two lines with ease is a must.
 
Re: Zeppelin Bend

Is there a philosophy that a ButterFly loop in line is not safe to connect to, or isolate weak part of line?

Would barrel/ double fisherman be better with central carabiner link, to eliminate rope to rope rub and be able to slide barrels off of mount to untie?
 
Re: Zeppelin Bend

A triple fisherman's is more secure than a double. It also jams, though.

In rope that you actually use for life-support, have you ever tried to shake out a properly tied Zeppelin/Rosendahl bend (Pull on all 4 ends)? And if so, how long did it take to shake out?

Just curious.
 
A Zeppelin/Rosendahl Bend is quite easily more secure than a Double Bowline. As you may know, Double Bowlines are widely used for life-support purposes with no apparent reports of problems. So it seems that the need for using jam-prone bends for life support is unwarranted.

In addition, a Zeppelin/Rosendahl Bend is less likely to hook on debris than some other bends since its free ends emerge at right angles to the parent line instead of acute angles.
 
Re: Zeppelin Bend

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what knot would you use in which large loads may be encountered and untying the two lines with ease is a must.

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It would depend, in part, on whether the knot had to go through any hardware (knot pass) and compactness was necessary. But I would likely use a double sheet bend backed up by double overhand knots on each tail. This makes, in effect, a "split" double fisherman's bend, with the two knots separated by the double sheetbend. This offers the security of the double fisherman's without the difficulty in untying because most of the load is taken by the (easy-to-untie) double sheetbend.

sheetbend.gif


- Robert
 
Re: Zeppelin Bend

i like joining 2 double Bowlines with metal link for standard use, if not to be leveraged around something. On arc try to keep stiffness out, even go flat webbing or tenex type for minimal leveraging. This gives quick modular units i guess, that can be quickly changed over to other use, lengthened, shortened etc. Also remebering some addage about synthetic to metal rather than sytnhetic to synthetic.

Sure will remeber the Double Sheet Bend Trick! i think SheetBends with slips or False Beckets(proper term?)with pin release are great. All the same as the Double Bowlines really of course! Round Turns in all 3 giving softer arc for greater strength, more friction in trap part for more security. Possibly more dynamic absorbtion in the coils i've kinda thought too, like in Fisherman's Strength Test Thread. though i guess i don't bend lines together to climb on!
 
Re: Heavily Loaded Bend

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So if you were to use it to, say tow your car with, you could untie it more easily (or the same as) a double bowline?

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I assume you mean two double bowlines with intertwined loops? I haven't towed my vehicle with the double sheet bend, but I suspect it will be harder to untie than the bowline.

The bowline unties easily because it is not a very secure knot (it doesn't cinch tightly on itself and hold its configuration well without being loaded). The bowline is also not a particularly stable knot (it can distort and fall apart if it is snagged a certain way). For those reasons, it should always be backed up (single or double overhand on the tail or Yosemite version).

The double sheetbend with double overhand backups is an exceptionally secure knot as well as being exceptionally stable.

- Robert
 
Re: Heavily Loaded Bend

Frankly, like Roo, I'm quite surprised is Rosendahl's Zeppelin bend
ever jams--gotta wonder how it's been dressed & set, if ... .

Ashley's Bend #1452 & #1425 are good ones, either of which should
handle heavy loads w/o jamming. Somehow, I don't think that the
issue of security is so important to the thrust of this thread;
that the desired rope joint isn't going to be left out in various
conditions that might work it loose.

The pictured backed-up Dbl. Sheet Bend might be less secure than
is thought: on a climbing forum, it was revealed that the Strangle
Knots (Dbl.Overhands) used to back things up sometimes loosen--which
indeed one can see in such stiff & slick rope, if they're not deliberately
firmly set! So replace the Sheet Bend with that infamous Thief Knot,
and you convert the Thief's slippage into needed tension of the ends
into the back-up knots to draw them snug & secure (which, btw, the
Grapevine does TOO well, hence its difficulty in being untied (and
hence it being well more secure than the cited Sheet bend structure)).
Moreover, note in that Sheet-Bend image how severely bent the right
rope is as it enters the Sheet Bend--that's more secure, but lousy
for the rope at that point.

Re the Bowline being insecure and thus easily untied, that relation
of attributes might work in one direction, but isn't valid the other
way around: some secure knots can be easily untied, too. There are
various means to secure the Bowline (half-hitch the end around BOTH
legs of the eye and tuck it out through the loop made by the standing
part (loaded end) which provides the knot's nip--the end should exit
away from the crossing point of that loop part. Or try the loops on
Dan Britton's Contributions page (Locktight II, Lehman8):
www.iland.net/~jbritton/KnotPhotoContributions.html
Locktight I works well in supple rope; L.II is better in stiff rope.

As for Ashley's Bend (#1452), here's an archived r.c.knots snippet:
The ends can be positioned such that the twisting of them imparted
by the draw of the opposed SParts (which pinch them) twists them
every tighter together--this knot's easily untied, and likely the
strongest form--; or on the reverse side of each other, such that
the SParts' draw makes them *walk* a bit into their *collars* but
then those collars ride up around the knot body and lock, nipping
the SParts at their entry--this is a knot pretty secure when slack,
and likely weaker--; and the ends can be carefully oriented re the
line of tension such that they sorta *abutt* each other and rise
up in parallel--this form also leads to the collars riding up and
locking off the SParts (maybe one needs to ensure that the collars
are amply large/loose).

*knudeNoggin*
 
Re: Heavily Loaded Bend

Outstanding Dan, i'll be sure to include the link in my site. i think RescueRob should have some quotable links too i could use? /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Heavily Loaded Bend

i've been thinking of the 'preceding buffer' strategies and how much force should be metered to the 'real safety locks' to not let them jam, but still be tensed enough to lock.

i think we have overlooked bowline/half hitch strategies(single reeve), but upgraded to sheepshank (double reeve) for thickness, for softer initial arc/more strength; perhaps even a series of chokes like in 1st bend determines knot strength % Tensile . What i thought might be a new knot a buddy found, thus called it 'Higgenbothams' after himself; Tim Gardner pointed out was ABOK#161 and repeated as Bell Ringer's Knot #172. But that is type strategy i'm refering to. Followed with double overhands as positive lock phase.
 
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