yoyo/rads or SRT rope walker?

Maui Palm & Tree Care

Maui Palm & Tree Care

Location
Pukalani, Hawaii
i cant decide what to start learning next. i was thinking about SRT/rope walker for while but when i see the RADs method it looks more like what my body would wanna do naturally. i cant decide what gear i should buy. i normally work off of 1/2" ropes and the rads uses a petzle gri gri(works only with 7/16") so it's a toss up between spending more on a new smaller diameter rope and buying the rads system or being a little un comfortable with the srt and keep the ropes i use now.
 
rads works well if you need to move up/down while in the tree.

for ascending rope walking is much better

if you're going to start srt the first change is to get 11mm rope. very few rope tools work on half inch rope.
 
Can't testify 'bout other lines but Yale XTC Fire (12mm) through a grigri has been working great for the last 6 months. Tried Sterling's 11mm HTP, felt way too 'loose' for lots of up/down/up/down/...

For what it's worth, been using RADS for pruning - as Tom says, "rads works well if you need to move up/down while in the tree."
 
every rope tool has a specification for the correct rope diameter. climbers have used half inch/13mm rope. this changes the mechanics of the camming action which could lead to the rope slipping=accident.
 
While rope walkers are the most efficient way to ascend a rope, they are not without drawbacks. First, most Rope walkers except the Mitchell, are one way systems, i.e. up. They do not go down. They are typically specialized methods with fairly specific gear requirements. Other than rope walkers implemented with a Unicender, none have a plausible emergency descent capability.

Once in the tree, most of the rope walking gear will become superfluous and you will need a second system, e.g. DdRT or RADS for up and downs and in and outs.

The RADS offers one system for ascending and descending, limb walks, and has a built in emergency descent capability, especially SingleJack's beautifully implemented RADS shown in the video he linked in his post.

I use a similar setup except I use a Shunt instead of the Rescuecender. The Shunt, does not have to be removed to rappel (even fast) and will follow you all the way to the ground without any attention from you. I think SingleJack's Rescuecender will too - I just don't remember.

The RADS doesn't require overly specialized gear, unless one considers a grigri specialized, although I use a Rig instead of the grigri. You can leg climb 1:1 or arm climb 3:1. I know of no other system that offers both ratios - exactly as it should be - 1:1 on the legs for faster ascent, 3:1 on the arms to make short arm ascents possible.

A RADS is not as efficient as a rope walker but you don't have to buy and deal with the extra gear either; and you only need one climbing system.
 
In my experience, 1/2" ropes will work in a GriGri, though out of the manufacturer specs. There is probably extra drag, though. It is harder to feed than an 11mm line, but didn't seems to have the capacity to prevent the cam from grabbing. At times such as choking a bowline around the trunk for SRT removals on conifers, and others, I like the oversized 1/2" line because the GG will not slip down and develop slack when you are not handling it, and I can just sit back without dropping.

Again, against manufacturer specs. If you are owner/ operator and not letting your employee use the system, you may or may not be legally okay.


I'm looking forward to getting a Uni! Srt, DdRT, emergency descent at any time, which in the tropics might be more important that other places such as western WA where there are not many insects to worry about, by comparison, and no poisonous snakes that could be in the tree.
 
sean,

this is exactly what i referred to. who cares about legalities after someone gets hurt.

using tools improperly sets a bad example...i could go on and on.

my right hand is splinted so typing is slow and difficult. if i had two hands there would be a LONG LOUD response about safety.
 
[ QUOTE ]
sean,

this is exactly what i referred to. who cares about legalities after someone gets hurt.

using tools improperly sets a bad example...i could go on and on.

my right hand is splinted so typing is slow and difficult. if i had two hands there would be a LONG LOUD response about safety.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to hear about the hand, Tom. Hope it heals quickly.



Have you heard about any accidents involving a GriGri with any sized ropes that was attributable to the device? I have not.


Tom, are you saying that the GG and 1/2" is more dangerous/ less safe, has the potential to be more dangerous, or just isn't within the legal scope of things?




I was saying that, in my experience, a slightly larger rope actually was safer in a GG for work positioning, though slightly heavier rope weight and needing additional tending, as compared to the rope it is designed around, 10-11mm for belaying/ rappelling.

What I like about a GriGri, at my equipped working weight (close to 200 pounds), with a 1/2" rope, is that it stays put. I think that the Unicender really is the better, purpose-built device, though 3x's the price.

I have dropped a short distance, maybe 2-3 feet, when I first changed over to to a thinnner rope,Poison hy-vee. I had my lanyard attached. I don't know if the GG caught or the lanyard. I always confirm the new system (climb line in this case) is bearing my weight and secure before disabling/ unhooking the system that I had tested and been hanging/ depending on (lanyard).



Tom, are you saying that the GG and 1/2" is more dangerous/ less safe, has the potential to be more dangerous, or just isn't within the legal scope of things?

I think that the GriGri 2 will be a better match for the smaller diameter ropes that are in both modern rock and tree climbing scenarios.

I am not sure of the breaking strength requirement/ actuality with the GG as related to tree work. Anyone?






I have used mine for years and have found it to be reliable and durable. I will hope to get both a Uni and GG2 in time.
 
I got the impression there were two issues: one is the Grigri safe on 1/2" rope and two, if there was an accident with a climber in one's employ, involving a Grigri on 1/2" rope, what would the liability be.

I know a lot of people that climb with grigris on 1/2" rope and I wouldn't hesitate to myself. I climb on PI with the Grigri and don't give it a thought, but then I'm not working when I do.

Sean,
Does it not bother you that you've dropped 2-3 feet on a Grigri? I'm just asking, no intent to be judgemental at all. But I have mentioned this very thing as one reason to use a Rig (the Rig can be locked off) instead of the Grigri for work - the Rig was designed for work positioning; the Grigri was not. It is my belief that under common conditions, a Grigri can and will 'back down' the rope, leading to a surprise when the climber sits back down in the saddle - it's just not where you left it.

While a 2-3 foot drop may not be all that big of a deal, it could be if one got jammed into the sharp splinters of a broken limb during the fall.
 
[ QUOTE ]
sean,

this is exactly what i referred to. who cares about legalities after someone gets hurt.

using tools improperly sets a bad example...i could go on and on.

my right hand is splinted so typing is slow and difficult. if i had two hands there would be a LONG LOUD response about safety.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point well taken, Tom! Using equipment beyond its rating has to be considered unsafe and not to be recommended - my bad.

However, I'm with Sean since I'm at the same working weight, my system pushes the limit for the grigri but the built-in Rescucender backup is used within its rating. Altogether, it actually makes for safer work positioning. BUT, then-again, my liabilities are limited to me walking away when I reach the ground.

Anyway, take care of that hand, I (we) get your point - safety is paramount, especially when developing a new climbing system or changing a climbing style - stay within spec, low & slow.
 
[ QUOTE ]


Sean,
Does it not bother you that you've dropped 2-3 feet on a Grigri?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I feel like the GriGri and 1/2" rope is a good combo, whereas 11mm ropes move too easily through the GriGri. The Uni and GG2 (potentially) look like good combo's for 11mm and 7/16" rope.

The drop that occurred was not a free fall, I was still holding onto the tree, though as I mentioned, either my GG or lanyard held tight, (or was it my hands on the tree?).

I have had no difficulties with the GG otherwise, aside from the extra tending required. I continue to use it, feeling secure.

Now, I just make sure that the cam in engaged on the PHv, whereas before while using 1/2" I never had to check before sitting down, as it was snug.

Again, I never disable one system before being sure my next life-support system is checked and working. Usually, I would just sit on my GG and then check, then remove my other TIP.


With the PHv in the 11mm/ 7/16" range, I will sometimes tie and overhand on a bight stopper knot or slipknot below the GriGri, particularly if I am weighting and unweighting the rope frequently. I will often use a modified RADS SRT system for pruning, or choked running bowline with GG for conifer removals.

While a lowering device at the ground for SRT pruning, with a long rope is ideal, I will often choke the trunk instead. I like the idea that for either SRT or DdRT, if I were to get both of my hands injured, I could flip the descent lever over fully on the GG and let the groundman control the descent speed with a fireman's belay, provided that I am not carrying my whole rope in a ropebag. I don't know about the Rig in this capacity, as I think it has a panic stop. The slipknot will pull out from below by the groundman.

I did not buy the GG for treework. I had it already from rock climbing. I look forward to a Uni and/ or GG2.
 
Ron, rope walking systems are not gear intensive nor are they difficult to apply. There is no need for transition to Ddrt to work. The only ascender needed for rope walking is a foot ascender but that is not necessary either. Hitches work great as both and upper and a lower and can be descended on easily with a little added friction.
 
If i were to get hit by bees I could descend on a hitch with a foot belay seems safe to me but i realize not completely kosher. This is the method I used to escape some wasps. To be more correct you can add friction below the hitch with any belay device without taking your weight off rope. if you have sufficient rope for it, than you can take your tail, clip it into the upper ascender and that will give enough friction to descend. Granted, the last two methods are not as fast as a RADs descent. The last method basically puts you in kind of a rads mode but with a hitch.

All it takes for the hitch to descend is a little friction either above or below the hitch. Above the hitch is not possible with your weight on the rope. Although it is not difficult to transfer your weight to the upper ascender (hitch or mechanical) and install the descent device. (currently I use a kong robot). I would not do this with bees around though, I would grab the rope with my feet and run my hitch down the rope to freedom. I feel my feet can tend the rope as well as any figure eight can. how could they fail?
 
While backup knots and/or stoppers are good when using a Gri-gri (or any single device, really) I routinely use a Gri-Gri with a 10 or 10.2mm climbing rope and have caught some substantial falls with the device in rock climbing scenarios. Though this falls more under "assisted braking" than descending. It's good to check that the cam is engaged in descending scenarios because the forces are much less and it CAN slip some.I also use the GG as my solo aid device on my 10.2 and don't worry about it catching me. I don't use the GG much at work, but sometimes. Has anyone else experienced slippage with the GG with a rope the size of PHv? This surprises me some. I think I may be a bit lighter than you guys who've chimmed in with your weights, but I'm sure they're some other lightweights out there so I can't believe that this is the issue. Plus I've watched 200 pound guys descend on a single +/- 10mm line with a GG in a controled fashion.
Anyway, as to the OP I will say that I don't much like the RADS system with a GG for tree work for one reason...it takes two hands to descend. This is not the case for hitches or the F8 revolver setup, but I still prefer to changeover to hitches after I've reached the high point in my access line. But that's my own personal preference. YMMV.
As far as ropewalkers go, I think my "walker" system might just barely qualify, but I will say that it isn't very gear intensive. I use my split-tail lanyard as my chest harness, my regular hitch as my floating bridge attachment, a pantin and a petzl basic or croll with a harness attachment and a piece of bungee that attaches to my side D-ring. My foot loop is a 1" nylon loop that I always cary with a biner for light rigging duty anyway. The bungee gets stored in the basket of the croll/basic when not in use and the ascender hangs on the harness. The only piece of gear that gets stowed after the ascent is the ascender and a shoulder runner and a biner. The pantin stays on my foot and I use it when body thrusting.
Cherio!
-caleb
 
Caleb-

The slippage wasn't with the cam engaged. It was because I was sitting down onto it with a newer, slick, skinnier line rather than a jolt like a fall, whether rock or tree. I imagine that if I had dropped onto it, it would have locked fine.

Sean
 
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Caleb-

The slippage wasn't with the cam engaged. It was because I was sitting down onto it with a newer, slick, skinnier line rather than a jolt like a fall, whether rock or tree. I imagine that if I had dropped onto it, it would have locked fine.

Sean

[/ QUOTE ]

Right on. That's what I figured. I can see how that might happen, especially on a new rope. I pulled the GG out of the bag at work today just for the heck of it and realized that a lot of the time I tend to brush the round part of the cam lever up with my finger when changing over. Something I didn't even realize I did. But it stems from slow transitions to the GG I think.
 
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