- Location
- rhode island
I tried. Seriously though, X, why didn't you go with a captive ring design? Not knocking, just curious.
X-rigging rings
- Thread starter treebing
- Start date
[ QUOTE ]
The rings look very nice!
Well done X!
Question is ..what is the price!!!
This product is competing against a tried and tested method,that is using pullies.
Most people already have blocks.
As we all know, blocks do a great job, and the only reason I would replace my block is that it is worn out.
The x rings would have to be significatley cheaper than a block to purchase in favour of a a block.
A Block far out ways a ring with its capabilities.
X ring is a great product but its got to be priced right and optioned .ie. not sold compulsory with spliced slings.
PS. I reckon the rings are a great product
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you. Old F replied correctly. They aren't really to replace your block and a block will always have it's place.
What I see in this industry is people not rigging smart, or not using any tools to rig at all.
The single ring on a sling is a cheap and light alternative to blocks when you want or should be using redirects in your tree to direct the forces down your tree using it's structure better.
Also a single ring with sling can now be your blocks sling and allow you to retrieve that block (and/or set it) from the ground. Don't use it unless you might need to set or retrieve from the ground.
Lastly, there are several ways to have three rings as your top rigging point, with Safe Working Loads of 2000 Lbs or less (using factor of 10:1, NOT 5:1) and not incrediably fast runs. And you can set these up to be retrievable. Don't use these for cranking up a whole big tree or lowering a whole big tree. Don't use it for blocking down large logs with fast runs.
I love my blocks and will always be using them. I am one to use many rigging redirects anyway, I love having a few of these on my harness. They are fast to install and don't weigh me down. I find myself rigging smarter because it is so easy.
I hope that these rigging ring slings will encourage more people to use re-directs and rig smarter; due to the fact that they cost less than a block and sling, weigh much less and attach very fast.
When talking to many people at the expo, about 30 or 35% of them had no idea why you would redirect forces down a tree instead of going straight from one rigging point out on a limb, down to the lowering device (well, in their case, wraps around a trunk). Also, for that matter, most of them are still using a natural crotch too.....
This subject reminds me of a story a local tree service guy told me about a year or so ago. Their bucket truck was sitting in their yard with the cab smashed way down. I asked what happened. "well, our guy was in the bucket, went and tied off a big limb, we locked it off around the base of the tree, he cut the limb and the rope broke. The tips hit the ground and the butt of the limb smashed the cab of the truck. It jolted the truck like crazy and thankfully the bucket guy did have his harness on; because many times he does not."
I said, "oh my gosh, were you using a block and let it run?"
"no, no, we did it the way we've always been doin it, used a crotch in the tree, same way we've done it a thousand times before and never had a problem.... the rope just broke. So we fixed that problem, we went out today and bought a bigger rope."
I didn't bother explaining how when you natural crotch the friction holds the rope in the crotch and makes most of the stretch and abuse happen between the falling limb and the natural crotch (instead of the whole rope in the system sharing it) and that the 1/2 radious of the natural crotch is a likely place you are going to break your rope. They were upset about their truck and already bought a bigger rope and had their mind set that they fixed the problem.
But, it makes me wonder, if they could use three rings because it is lighter, cheaper and fast to install, MAYBE, just maybe, they might use that instead of a trees crotch. Tree rings is going to be WAY better than a natural crotch.
Wait till some of your guys use them and put feedback on here. I think you will be amazed how low friction they are.
The rings look very nice!
Well done X!
Question is ..what is the price!!!
This product is competing against a tried and tested method,that is using pullies.
Most people already have blocks.
As we all know, blocks do a great job, and the only reason I would replace my block is that it is worn out.
The x rings would have to be significatley cheaper than a block to purchase in favour of a a block.
A Block far out ways a ring with its capabilities.
X ring is a great product but its got to be priced right and optioned .ie. not sold compulsory with spliced slings.
PS. I reckon the rings are a great product
[/ QUOTE ]
Thank you. Old F replied correctly. They aren't really to replace your block and a block will always have it's place.
What I see in this industry is people not rigging smart, or not using any tools to rig at all.
The single ring on a sling is a cheap and light alternative to blocks when you want or should be using redirects in your tree to direct the forces down your tree using it's structure better.
Also a single ring with sling can now be your blocks sling and allow you to retrieve that block (and/or set it) from the ground. Don't use it unless you might need to set or retrieve from the ground.
Lastly, there are several ways to have three rings as your top rigging point, with Safe Working Loads of 2000 Lbs or less (using factor of 10:1, NOT 5:1) and not incrediably fast runs. And you can set these up to be retrievable. Don't use these for cranking up a whole big tree or lowering a whole big tree. Don't use it for blocking down large logs with fast runs.
I love my blocks and will always be using them. I am one to use many rigging redirects anyway, I love having a few of these on my harness. They are fast to install and don't weigh me down. I find myself rigging smarter because it is so easy.
I hope that these rigging ring slings will encourage more people to use re-directs and rig smarter; due to the fact that they cost less than a block and sling, weigh much less and attach very fast.
When talking to many people at the expo, about 30 or 35% of them had no idea why you would redirect forces down a tree instead of going straight from one rigging point out on a limb, down to the lowering device (well, in their case, wraps around a trunk). Also, for that matter, most of them are still using a natural crotch too.....
This subject reminds me of a story a local tree service guy told me about a year or so ago. Their bucket truck was sitting in their yard with the cab smashed way down. I asked what happened. "well, our guy was in the bucket, went and tied off a big limb, we locked it off around the base of the tree, he cut the limb and the rope broke. The tips hit the ground and the butt of the limb smashed the cab of the truck. It jolted the truck like crazy and thankfully the bucket guy did have his harness on; because many times he does not."
I said, "oh my gosh, were you using a block and let it run?"
"no, no, we did it the way we've always been doin it, used a crotch in the tree, same way we've done it a thousand times before and never had a problem.... the rope just broke. So we fixed that problem, we went out today and bought a bigger rope."
I didn't bother explaining how when you natural crotch the friction holds the rope in the crotch and makes most of the stretch and abuse happen between the falling limb and the natural crotch (instead of the whole rope in the system sharing it) and that the 1/2 radious of the natural crotch is a likely place you are going to break your rope. They were upset about their truck and already bought a bigger rope and had their mind set that they fixed the problem.
But, it makes me wonder, if they could use three rings because it is lighter, cheaper and fast to install, MAYBE, just maybe, they might use that instead of a trees crotch. Tree rings is going to be WAY better than a natural crotch.
Wait till some of your guys use them and put feedback on here. I think you will be amazed how low friction they are.
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you go with a captive ring? I'm thinking about the thimbles that dmm is putting out. It seems like they would add a bit more security and splicing options if the rings could capture the rope.
[/ QUOTE ]
DMM is putting out thimbles for climbing and such.
The X-Rigging Rings are for rigging.
I would imagine the DMM thimble is a cast part.
The X-Rigging rings are the way they are without a captive outside groove because of how they are formed (and that's all I want to say about that).
I want a rigging ring when pushed past acceptable rigging forces, to distort, to oval instead of breaking. I don't want them cast. Also this way, if guys drop them out of trees and abuse them (like I'm sure many will) they won't get stress cracks or be a failure waiting to happen without showing signs. IF you abuse the sling and ring, say any of the single ring with 3/4" tenex and big eye; say a Straight pull, the ring will slightly distort at 19,000 Lbs, the tenex (if used condition) will break around 22,000 Lbs.
IF you ever see a distorted ring, you pushed the rigging forces WAY TOO FAR! and you should throw the sling away because it was very close to breaking.
by the way, we never could break the RING in a sling, only get some distortion and the sling would break. Even if we made the sling out of 3/4" dyneema, I still don't think we could ever hold the sling together long enough to break a ring, it would simply oval and elongate.
The rigging rings are without a captive groove because it kept cost down, plus I wouldn't want it as cast and testing shows the sling does NOT want to come out of the groove. Tension makes the sling stay in the groove even more. With professional splicing, the tight splicing will keep the sling in the groove in slacked times as well.
Why didn't you go with a captive ring? I'm thinking about the thimbles that dmm is putting out. It seems like they would add a bit more security and splicing options if the rings could capture the rope.
[/ QUOTE ]
DMM is putting out thimbles for climbing and such.
The X-Rigging Rings are for rigging.
I would imagine the DMM thimble is a cast part.
The X-Rigging rings are the way they are without a captive outside groove because of how they are formed (and that's all I want to say about that).
I want a rigging ring when pushed past acceptable rigging forces, to distort, to oval instead of breaking. I don't want them cast. Also this way, if guys drop them out of trees and abuse them (like I'm sure many will) they won't get stress cracks or be a failure waiting to happen without showing signs. IF you abuse the sling and ring, say any of the single ring with 3/4" tenex and big eye; say a Straight pull, the ring will slightly distort at 19,000 Lbs, the tenex (if used condition) will break around 22,000 Lbs.
IF you ever see a distorted ring, you pushed the rigging forces WAY TOO FAR! and you should throw the sling away because it was very close to breaking.
by the way, we never could break the RING in a sling, only get some distortion and the sling would break. Even if we made the sling out of 3/4" dyneema, I still don't think we could ever hold the sling together long enough to break a ring, it would simply oval and elongate.
The rigging rings are without a captive groove because it kept cost down, plus I wouldn't want it as cast and testing shows the sling does NOT want to come out of the groove. Tension makes the sling stay in the groove even more. With professional splicing, the tight splicing will keep the sling in the groove in slacked times as well.
also, everyone, for the next two weeks, I might not be able to answer your question immediately, it's not because I'm ignoring you, there is a lot going on right now. I will always get to the question.
I should start up another USER on treebuzz, XtremeArb or something and several of us can use that ID to answer questions or state things.
BTW, there is constantly new ideas where these rings are being used in rigging, it's really cool stuff. There are so many of you out there that are smart and innovative, it's going to be amazing what you come up with for uses in rigging.
Can't wait to get a video together showing the many uses.
Labels and prices are almost done.
I should start up another USER on treebuzz, XtremeArb or something and several of us can use that ID to answer questions or state things.
BTW, there is constantly new ideas where these rings are being used in rigging, it's really cool stuff. There are so many of you out there that are smart and innovative, it's going to be amazing what you come up with for uses in rigging.
Can't wait to get a video together showing the many uses.
Labels and prices are almost done.
Thanks Xman for your informative reply.
They would nice and light to carry on your harness,as you say, for a redirect.
Hopefully they will be available internationally.
They would nice and light to carry on your harness,as you say, for a redirect.
Hopefully they will be available internationally.
Waldo
Participating member
- Location
- Portland, OR
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want some for a ring and ring cambium saver! Or for a super sexy secret weapon! Will these ever come in climbing ring sizes or only big rigging sizes?
[/ QUOTE ]
THESE are for rigging and not life support systems. Sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why limit what these rings can be used for? Clearly they are strong enough to be considered life support hardware. Do you have any concerns for unsafe configurations?
[ QUOTE ]
I want some for a ring and ring cambium saver! Or for a super sexy secret weapon! Will these ever come in climbing ring sizes or only big rigging sizes?
[/ QUOTE ]
THESE are for rigging and not life support systems. Sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why limit what these rings can be used for? Clearly they are strong enough to be considered life support hardware. Do you have any concerns for unsafe configurations?
what if someone had a loose ring and spliced cordage around it and did a completely terrible job, like a really really loose eye around the ring, then used it for climbing, then without knowing, the ring came out of the cordage. Then the climber did a really fast long descent to the ground; it would be rope on rope, could likely melt through the tenex. People that want the rings argue that any hardware could be spliced wrong, causing the climber to fall, it's their responsibility....
I don't know..... A splice coming apart is one thing, rope burning through rope is another.
I think for life support, it should be a captive ring. If your splice comes undone because you don't know how to splice, that's your fault. I don't want the ring coming out of the eye and rope melt through rope.
Put a few of those DMM thimbles together for a climbing attachement maybe. Or wait for something better....
I don't know..... A splice coming apart is one thing, rope burning through rope is another.
I think for life support, it should be a captive ring. If your splice comes undone because you don't know how to splice, that's your fault. I don't want the ring coming out of the eye and rope melt through rope.
Put a few of those DMM thimbles together for a climbing attachement maybe. Or wait for something better....
Waldo
Participating member
- Location
- Portland, OR
A very valid concern. Why is it different for rigging? Any person can mis-splice a rigging sling that causes a catastrophic failure that results in masive property or personal injury. There is this mindset that i do not understand, that rigging can somehow be less safe than a climbing system.
NickfromWI
Participating member
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
David, your rings/thimbles are AWESOME and would be perfect for climbers AND rigging. I think any argument you could have for not wanting climbers to use them would only be compounded when you up the loads and dynamic forces in rigging operations. For example...
[ QUOTE ]
what if someone had a loose ring and spliced cordage around it and did a completely terrible job, like a really really loose eye around the ring, then used it for climbing,
[/ QUOTE ]
Same situation would be worse in rigging heavy loads, no?
My point is that any gear we make can be misused by dummies. Our job is to make good gear that is intuitive and provide the necessary information on how it should be properly be used. Let darwin handle the rest!
I look forward to the rigging x rings AND the eventual climbers version.
love
nick
[ QUOTE ]
what if someone had a loose ring and spliced cordage around it and did a completely terrible job, like a really really loose eye around the ring, then used it for climbing,
[/ QUOTE ]
Same situation would be worse in rigging heavy loads, no?
My point is that any gear we make can be misused by dummies. Our job is to make good gear that is intuitive and provide the necessary information on how it should be properly be used. Let darwin handle the rest!
I look forward to the rigging x rings AND the eventual climbers version.
love
nick
[ QUOTE ]
A very valid concern. Why is it different for rigging? Any person can mis-splice a rigging sling that causes a catastrophic failure that results in masive property or personal injury. There is this mindset that i do not understand, that rigging can somehow be less safe than a climbing system.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand that you do not understand. I thought just like you and I understand you.
Let's take another rigging tool for example. The GRCS; it's made for rigging, lets say you wanted to use it to lift you back into the tree after your lunch break. Do you just do the wraps as you would rigging a limb and use the drill to raise you into the tree? Or do you do more than you do with rigging, such as set up a prussic as a back-up, just in case the grcs slips or someone screws up?
Me... If a grcs was to pull me up into the tree, I would have a back up on the line.
For rigging where I was cranking on the grcs, i would almost never use a prussic or back up. For human life I would.
A rule where I work is this, in rope rigging; never assume that the limb or log will not fall to the ground. NEVER place yourself under a rigged limb or log, you never know if the climber tied it correctly or if something is going to fail. Never count on it being controled.
A very valid concern. Why is it different for rigging? Any person can mis-splice a rigging sling that causes a catastrophic failure that results in masive property or personal injury. There is this mindset that i do not understand, that rigging can somehow be less safe than a climbing system.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand that you do not understand. I thought just like you and I understand you.
Let's take another rigging tool for example. The GRCS; it's made for rigging, lets say you wanted to use it to lift you back into the tree after your lunch break. Do you just do the wraps as you would rigging a limb and use the drill to raise you into the tree? Or do you do more than you do with rigging, such as set up a prussic as a back-up, just in case the grcs slips or someone screws up?
Me... If a grcs was to pull me up into the tree, I would have a back up on the line.
For rigging where I was cranking on the grcs, i would almost never use a prussic or back up. For human life I would.
A rule where I work is this, in rope rigging; never assume that the limb or log will not fall to the ground. NEVER place yourself under a rigged limb or log, you never know if the climber tied it correctly or if something is going to fail. Never count on it being controled.
Oh, it was a good joke and certainly I deserve it. Orders will be through the website. It won't be as smooth as "the walmart of arborist supplies" but you will be able to use credit card or check. My day is going fast, gotta do family stuff now, likely get to prices tonight.
[ QUOTE ]
David what the a$$ is "." Happy thanksgiving to you.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think its a period as in end of story.
David what the a$$ is "." Happy thanksgiving to you.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think its a period as in end of story.
I have agreed to purchase advertising on treebuzz and therefor it is okay to post this information here, if I'm not mistaken. (I couldn't get it all posted last night).
If you are reading this while I'm writing, give me a while to get all the photos the right size and to fit them all in, i will keep adding posts until all the X-rigging ring slings are UP.
Please don't contribute to this thread until I say, "okay, all the items are listed". It will be nice viewing for everyone to have them all together.
If you are reading this while I'm writing, give me a while to get all the photos the right size and to fit them all in, i will keep adding posts until all the X-rigging ring slings are UP.
Please don't contribute to this thread until I say, "okay, all the items are listed". It will be nice viewing for everyone to have them all together.
New threads New posts
-
test
-
-
-
-
If DMM made more carabiners that locked on a ring like the Revolver- Started by Bill_N
- Replies: 6
-
-
