What % of Climbers do you think...

SomethingWitty

Arkansawyer
An open system does not have to be disassembled in order to pass a branch or to advance. Generally, there are two carabinier attachments. One on the end and one on the positioning device.
The distinction is important because tying hitches in the tree can create yet another thing to mess up, it is slow, and advancing your rope when it is not connected to you can lead to a stranded climber. A split tail can easily create the exact same experience as a closed system without the glaring disadvantages.
 

Mowerr

Well-Known Member
It's kinda sounds like the way Jeff jepson explains it in the climbers companion. I could be mistaken though cuz I didn't check.

I just don't use those terms to explain to describe those systems myself.

Either I'm having deja Vu or we had similar conversation in another thread before and I think Tony broke it down with us.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
It's kinda sounds like the way Jeff jepson explains it in the climbers companion. I could be mistaken though cuz I didn't check.

I just don't use those terms to explain to describe those systems myself.

Either I'm having deja Vu or we had similar conversation in another thread before and I think Tony broke it down with us.
This has been a conversation before. Can’t remember when. It’s not a very important one, just a curiosity, a wonder and insight in how knowledge spreads.

I appreciate the input.

Tony
 

treehumper

Well-Known Member
This has been a conversation before. Can’t remember when. It’s not a very important one, just a curiosity, a wonder and insight in how knowledge spreads.

I appreciate the input.

Tony
That is how it is taught in the apprenticeship program in Ontario, essentially.
 

*useless info*

Well-Known Member
Forcing descent on a friction hitch in SRT
is TOTALLY different mechanic i think vs in DdRT;
pretty outer fringe..
.
In DdRT etc. of nonSRT
The support leg w/o friction hitch riding on it/the static side
>>Can take a load shift to it, to majorly unload the opposing/control leg with friction hitch
Allowing more easily slide/unloaded friction hitch
>> this happens just like friction hitch leg was shearing in 2/failing
>>all load transfers to the stiffer/static leg automatically for you
.
Usually say load one control legs for other things
Both legs are load legs in this/direct attach to climber as load
>>but still the control leg is only the one with the friction hitch on it/dynamic position on line
>>vs. static end terminating on climber as load
.
In SRT, forcing this to happen is under much more friction and glazing i'd think
>>as no other leg of support to offload to
>>knot choice has to be on verge of slide and hold
>>and more individualized risks etc.
.
SRT on Running Bowline, that rig or other accessory line was left in the eye for when wanted to switch gears over to DdRT and eventually descend.
>>use rig or other line to pull Bowline open down to you and tie into DdRT
>>If started as Running Bowline from ground, should have enough rope to descend/touch free end to chest to verify
>>be fluent in both systems is best
>>capitalize on each in it's power band to your own ergonomics..
 

RyTheTreeGuy

Well-Known Member
In what aspect? Untying a knot makes it a closed system as opposed to opening a connecting link?

Tony
If I was to guess, and this is just that...I would say the ability to disconnect without having to untie and re-tie the system is what differentiates. Using a single piece of rope hitched back on itself is a loop...it is "closed" and ultimately the hitch must be undone to open the loop. When you use a secondary piece of cordage/device your main line remains "open"...the only way to form a connection is with a bridge (split tail, hitch cord, etc.) Your main lifeline is never a closed loop and hence referred to as open
 

Reach

Well-Known Member
If I was to guess, and this is just that...I would say the ability to disconnect without having to untie and re-tie the system is what differentiates. Using a single piece of rope hitched back on itself is a loop...it is "closed" and ultimately the hitch must be undone to open the loop. When you use a secondary piece of cordage/device your main line remains "open"...the only way to form a connection is with a bridge (split tail, hitch cord, etc.) Your main lifeline is never a closed loop and hence referred to as open
Good summary, yes, that is the difference between a closed system and an open system. I believe the actual definition is that a closed system relies on only one piece of rope, which connects through and back to itself; no other components are necessary to make up the “system”. An open system incorporates one or more other elements, in between the working end and the standing end of the rope.
 

DSMc

Well-Known Member
If I was to guess, and this is just that...I would say the ability to disconnect without having to untie and re-tie the system is what differentiates. Using a single piece of rope hitched back on itself is a loop...it is "closed" and ultimately the hitch must be undone to open the loop. When you use a secondary piece of cordage/device your main line remains "open"...the only way to form a connection is with a bridge (split tail, hitch cord, etc.) Your main lifeline is never a closed loop and hence referred to as open
Yes, as I remember, this was the explanation used, within the tree industry, when split-tails first became popular.
 

Tony

Well-Known Member
Good summary, yes, that is the difference between a closed system and an open system. I believe the actual definition is that a closed system relies on only one piece of rope, which connects through and back to itself; no other components are necessary to make up the “system”. An open system incorporates one or more other elements, in between the working end and the standing end of the rope.
By this definition and ry’s above it there is no fundamental difference between the systems open vs. closed, only the components used. So why differentiate? Defining it these ways I could tie an open or closed system with or without split tail so why bother?

Tony
 

DSMc

Well-Known Member
The bother was that the change could be done with the click of a carabiner. Much faster, safer for that reason.
 

Reach

Well-Known Member
By this definition and ry’s above it there is no fundamental difference between the systems open vs. closed, only the components used. So why differentiate? Defining it these ways I could tie an open or closed system with or without split tail so why bother?

Tony
I’m not sure how you would tie an open system without a split tail? I see that as the difference, and differentiating simply defines the systems, it’s not really a “why bother”, so much as it is a simple statement of fact that the two systems are different, even if not greatly so.
 
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