What % of Climbers do you think...

SomethingWitty said:
I met a kind of local (an hour drive) guy through social media and went and had a play date today. He had been introduced to the split tail previously and had never experienced an e2e system.
He has seen some modern gear at the climb store but not played with it.

Before I left, he cut a tail off of his shorter climb line and I gave him a climbing helmet, a carabinier for the split tail, and a brass snap on a little loop for a hitch tender.
Whatever the number of climbers on a closed system happens to be, I know that it is too high. This particular guy usually works around people who would have no way to get his rope back to him if he dropped it while trying to advance. The split tail is the single most important advancement in production tree work. Reach out. Encourage advancement. One climber and one step at a time is the only way that it will happen.

Edit: For the record, I was trying very hard to not be snooty. It requires doing. These climbers face the same risks that the more "with the times" climbers do. They're just a couple of years of education and practice away from where we are. It is more important to get them to be safer and more efficient than it is to show off how amazing you can be. There are very few competitive climbers who can't spare enough time and gear essentials to get another human really excited at least once a year.
He was one of the more receptive ones, but I've got a carabinier and four feet of rope even for the ones that are too cool to learn.
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Legit
 
SomethingWitty said:
I met a kind of local (an hour drive) guy through social media and went and had a play date today. He had been introduced to the split tail previously and had never experienced an e2e system.
He has seen some modern gear at the climb store but not played with it.

Before I left, he cut a tail off of his shorter climb line and I gave him a climbing helmet, a carabinier for the split tail, and a brass snap on a little loop for a hitch tender.
Whatever the number of climbers on a closed system happens to be, I know that it is too high. This particular guy usually works around people who would have no way to get his rope back to him if he dropped it while trying to advance. The split tail is the single most important advancement in production tree work. Reach out. Encourage advancement. One climber and one step at a time is the only way that it will happen.

Edit: For the record, I was trying very hard to not be snooty. It requires doing. These climbers face the same risks that the more "with the times" climbers do. They're just a couple of years of education and practice away from where we are. It is more important to get them to be safer and more efficient than it is to show off how amazing you can be. There are very few competitive climbers who can't spare enough time and gear essentials to get another human really excited at least once a year.
He was one of the more receptive ones, but I've got a carabinier and four feet of rope even for the ones that are too cool to learn.
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This reminds me of one of the best contract climbers in Portland and who he does a lot of contracting for. He has done a significant amount of contracting for tree services that I was “too good to work with” either because of their sales tactics, crew inexperience, or inexperience of the company owners. I asked him why he worked for those companies and he replied that “those are the companies with the most room for improvement.” It is humbling to say the least to hear that from one of your peers. I have tended to work with a few select companies that make my life incredibly easy when I’m contracting. Everyone I typically work with understands my climbing and rigging systems for the most part, they have regular safety meetings, and they do legitimate sales. When I work with these crews I hardly have to turn my brain in the on position. What my friend does with those other crews is far more challenging. Holding ourselves above and away from those who need education is not how to steer those 70-80 percent of folks stuck in the dark ages of tree work to an easier, safer, and better way of approaching the work. We have to get into the trenches with them and like Something Witty said “It is more important to get them to be safer and more efficient than it is to show off how amazing you can be.”

Preaching to the choir doesn’t do as much good as getting off the pulpit and showing people things that they actually can attain and incorporate into their lives.
 
RyanCafferky said:
This reminds me of one of the best contract climbers in Portland and who he does a lot of contracting for. He has done a significant amount of contracting for tree services that I was “too good to work with” either because of their sales tactics, crew inexperience, or inexperience of the company owners. I asked him why he worked for those companies and he replied that “those are the companies with the most room for improvement.” It is humbling to say the least to hear that from one of your peers. I have tended to work with a few select companies that make my life incredibly easy when I’m contracting. Everyone I typically work with understands my climbing and rigging systems for the most part, they have regular safety meetings, and they do legitimate sales. When I work with these crews I hardly have to turn my brain in the on position. What my friend does with those other crews is far more challenging. Holding ourselves above and away from those who need education is not how to steer those 70-80 percent of folks stuck in the dark ages of tree work to an easier, safer, and better way of approaching the work. We have to get into the trenches with them and like Something Witty said “It is more important to get them to be safer and more efficient than it is to show off how amazing you can be.”

Preaching to the choir doesn’t do as much good as getting off the pulpit and showing people things that they actually can attain and incorporate into their lives.
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Your ex roommate is a great guy. I had the pleasure of meeting him at ARC!
 
RyanCafferky said:
This reminds me of one of the best contract climbers in Portland and who he does a lot of contracting for. He has done a significant amount of contracting for tree services that I was “too good to work with” either because of their sales tactics, crew inexperience, or inexperience of the company owners. I asked him why he worked for those companies and he replied that “those are the companies with the most room for improvement.” It is humbling to say the least to hear that from one of your peers. I have tended to work with a few select companies that make my life incredibly easy when I’m contracting. Everyone I typically work with understands my climbing and rigging systems for the most part, they have regular safety meetings, and they do legitimate sales. When I work with these crews I hardly have to turn my brain in the on position. What my friend does with those other crews is far more challenging. Holding ourselves above and away from those who need education is not how to steer those 70-80 percent of folks stuck in the dark ages of tree work to an easier, safer, and better way of approaching the work. We have to get into the trenches with them and like Something Witty said “It is more important to get them to be safer and more efficient than it is to show off how amazing you can be.”

Preaching to the choir doesn’t do as much good as getting off the pulpit and showing people things that they actually can attain and incorporate into their lives.
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Solid Ryan and Kyle.....just make a difference. Being a snotty asshole never garnered many friends in my book....just isolation.
 
I work away one if the largest and more progressively minded companies in town. Or of the 30 or so climbing capable employees (varying skill levels) 1/3 or so are still on a closed loop or split tail, 1/3 are on some hitch based system, and the last 1/3 are on mechanicals (zigzag or spider
jack) only 2 or 3 of us are on srt in some fashion.

Still a huge amount of throwing monkeys fists, or using pole saws to set ropes, lots and lots if gut busting without ascended. Lots of stab and grab tti the top of removals on spikes instead of presetting lines from the ground.

Mostly breaks into 3 groups... those of the old guard that are comfortable with what they learned on, those who are for whatever reason cheap and don't want to invest in themselves despite having experienced a better way, and those who are at least somewhat willing to see and try an easier way
 
I came across a small 2 guy crew doing a rather heavy "skinny it up" prune on a locust, probably the first stage of such treatment for the tree and after some conversation found out the young buck, I'll guess 25 or 30 max, had 5 or 6 years DRT on a Blakes with a split tail on a rope that looked north of 1/2". I asked him if he tried SRT and he said he'd heard positive stuff about it and some of his friends used it. That was about the extent of interest shown. I said it was as easy as grab a wrench and you're good to go - not even a flinch. I guess if you're young you just pound it out the hard way. Old guys don't have that luxury. Between the uninterested climber and what he did to the tree I left the site somewhat disappointed. Heavy violation of the cut size to trunk size ratio. ugh Also, he bought into rescuability by a groundie before bleeding out whilst DRT up a tree. I pointed out that unless his groundie was lightning fast and a hero climber (and had his saddle right handy too) , he'd have to look after himself on the spot in such a circumstance. Hope that twigged some thought. Early sunset leaves me at the keyboard these days. And its not even December.
 
Bart_ said:
I came across a small 2 guy crew doing a rather heavy "skinny it up" prune on a locust, probably the first stage of such treatment for the tree and after some conversation found out the young buck, I'll guess 25 or 30 max, had 5 or 6 years DRT on a Blakes with a split tail on a rope that looked north of 1/2". I asked him if he tried SRT and he said he'd heard positive stuff about it and some of his friends used it. That was about the extent of interest shown. I said it was as easy as grab a wrench and you're good to go - not even a flinch. I guess if you're young you just pound it out the hard way. Old guys don't have that luxury. Between the uninterested climber and what he did to the tree I left the site somewhat disappointed. Heavy violation of the cut size to trunk size ratio. ugh Also, he bought into rescuability by a groundie before bleeding out whilst DRT up a tree. I pointed out that unless his groundie was lightning fast and a hero climber (and had his saddle right handy too) , he'd have to look after himself on the spot in such a circumstance. Hope that twigged some thought. Early sunset leaves me at the keyboard these days. And its not even December.
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I'm 25. I SRT. A lot. Not all young guys are dumb shits trying to break their bodies*.

* I do that on the weekends rock climbing and MTBing. Gotta save some unbroken bones for the weekend
 
I’m older (42) have every piece of new equipment I could ever want and the older I get, the less I want to SRT. I almost exclusively climb DRT on a Lockjack. SRT isn't some magic bullet that is somehow always easier or better. It just works for some and not for others. And it works in some circumstances and not others. I find it interesting how so many climbers on here and elsewhere talk about SRT like it is the holy grail and if you don’t do it, you are doing something wrong or you are way behind the times. I get it, it is a useful technique at times but that's about it.

And just for some background, I started my career doing a ton of SRT. For years when I started in the industry most of my climbing was on a RADS system before anyone was calling it a RADS system. Then I was doing single up double down for a long time. Then the wrench and the runner came out and I did both of those (had one of the dirty 30 runners). These days if I have a long ascent I will bust out the Akimbo or Uni but for the most part I’ll just body thrust or spur up because honestly, I like it better and appreciate the simplicity.

I’m currently working in California auditing tree crews and the majority of the crews use very basic equipment and climb on closed systems. The one thing they also do is show a mastery of their craft (with the tools provided) and never complain about the job at hand or the tools that they are given. Are they slower than I would be with all of my fancy gear? Yes. Are they less efficient? Yes. But should I ride around on my high horse about how much better or faster I am and how they need to get with the times or should I be impressed at how much they get done with so little? The latter is the overwhelming feeling I am left with. What these guys do out here every day with the most basic gear is just as if not more impressive than what I do with a Sprinter packed full of a rolling Sherrill Store.

Just my $.02
 
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More climbers out there need a tree biology and pruning course than a climbing system update.

So often the real reason we are climbing trees is lost in the jingle-jangle of bright new shiny gear. Solid technique, sound fundamentals and sound knowledge of pruning methods should drive gear and systems improvement, not the other way around.

Gear and system does not make the climber or climb.


Tony
 
RyanCafferky said:
... Are they slower than I would be with all of my fancy gear? Yes. Are they less efficient? Yes...
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I am pretty good at starting a fire with flint and steel but on most days I will grab a match for that task.

Working longer and expending more energy, increases risk. A good worker will know when to use each system. But it should be a choice, not just a default.
 
JeffGu said:
Your next of kin, @Tony, will be left with some nice thoughts for the eulogy.
"He had great technique, and could prune a Mongolian Dingleberry Tree to perfection!"
You sure they wouldn't rather have two truckloads of shiny, blingy, tree crap they can sell on Ebay and Craigs List for beer money?
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Fortunately or not, my career path will provide both. A fine professional eulogy and a shit ton of gear.

Tony
 
I watched Richard Mumford's video earlier this year on combining SRT and DdRT on one rope and have become a real fan of that for certain rec climbs, like in nice spreading canopies. I keep one of my lines set up for this now. ZZ/RW combo on the main SRT end for initial up and down; and a second lonely ZZ on the tail, along with Richard's leather cambium saver sleeve and a biner, for moving around. Now, if I am heading up a conifer and leapfrogging the TIP higher with both ends of the rope, I can quickly put my spare RW on that second ZZ so I can SRT on both rope ends. If I do move about a bit on one of them, I also have the tail of my long lanyard and a BDB I can slap on it. Thanks, Richard!
 
I love those approaches. I really do. But, I love multiple lines even more. So, for me, I like to spend a little more time and set multiple lines on seperate anchors. That wonderful maneuverability and positioning in 3D spaces... yeah, you can do some of that with a long lanyard, too... and most of the time on a removal, that's what I do... but I'm old and tired and setting a couple of DdRT lines is time well spent, to me. I use the SRT line mostly for access, because I like the MA of the DdRT ones and it's easier for me to compensate for my multitude of inadequacies.

It's all good. It's all fun. It's all just one big adventure. Old school, new school... who cares? I love watching people aproach tree work from their own perspective and skills. I always learn something or at least look at what I'm doing from a different angle. I'm more afraid of losing my desire to try different stuff than I am of not finding that Holy Grail of climbing devices or techniques. As the wise men always say, the journey is much more rewarding than the prize at the end.

It's also quite possible that I'm bat shit crazy and have a hoarding instinct. The problem is, I just don't care, either way. There's nothing wrong with me that a few beers and/or confinement in a nuthouse won't fix.
 
No offence to younger guys as a generalization intended, sorry if it came across that way. Just recognizing that each decade uses up a little of your wheaties capacity. Accumulated injuries accelerate that loss. Once you're operating more so in the deficit region I guess you start to see things differently. I kind of lumped the poor pruning decisions/knowledge with the disinterest in (relatively) current climbing techniques and felt let down. Heck I even heard they're teaching SRT at arb colleges now, for a few years even. Seemed to indicate a disinterest in learning. A wrench isn't blazing newest tech anymore, it's more bread and butter tech. Lots of other new mechs have a wrench inside them as a sub component. Tony I generally agree with you. The tree probably upset me more that the other. It was in my neighbourhood where canopy is dwindling. Ryan, did you say older and 42 in the same sentence? - just ribbing you. I felt more spritely at 42. Ryan, would you feel you did a good thing if you gently in a friendly way turned someone onto the upside experience in SRT? No high horse stuff, just helpfulness. I told a local DRT-only guy about going up a big west coast tree and he was incredulous that I humped my way up that far, and at that point I explained SRT and I could see the interest in his eyes. That was a good feeling. By his age I guessed he had 10 to 15 years DRT in. Post suppertime darkness and there goes another verbose post. best to all.
 
Bart_ said:
. . . Post suppertime darkness . . .
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OMG, for sure. Pitch black darkness and bone chilling damp cold here in Puget Sound right now by 5PM. I swear to God if SwingDude posts another f*king photo of his sun-drenched Barbadoes beaches, I am flying straight down there to camp on his doorstep!
 
I started climbing in 2014 ( age 26 ) and was trained using a Blake’s hitch on a closed system. I climbed like that for 2 years and then progressed to a hitch climber system. After another 2 years I bought a wrench and started to learn SRS. Now (6 years later) I’m using mechanicals. It was a long hard journey that’s for sure.

If you can climb a 160’ tall Douglas fir spurless with just a flip line and a closed Blake’s system to prune and deadwood to the top, no ascenders, then my hats off to you because that’s how I learned and there’s absolutely no way I’d go back to that crap. It is nice to know I can get out of a sticky situation with just a rope though.

I know some great climbers who are very skilled with a split tail system and hitch climbers. They are just too old school to progress and don’t want to spend the money on new age gear because they believe so much in how they were taught and won’t change. These guys are also pretty beat up with joint and back pain it makes me sad.

That said, I think everyone should learn the old ways from the ground up to be knowledgeable in rope access.
 
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