does anyone know if a resistograph would pick up this disease? looking through my book it says a stress wave timer will not detect it but certain kinds of mechanical probe will
cheers
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Ustulina deusta
- Thread starter stevebullman
- Start date
No it won't Steve!
If you're responsible for a tree that definitely has Ustulina, slate it for 'careful' removal straight away. Its totally unpredicatable decay; failure points look like broken ceramics. I've straight felled trees with this stuff and winches, and you get no control unless its leaning in the direction of fall.
I remember Claus Matteck on his Dublin tour a few years ago showing pics of a huge healthy beech with strnge growth at the base. All his tests concluded nothing, but it was decided to fell it. The tree came over as they tensioned the winch cable - no cuts!
I bet the climber who put the cable up had a good think about what could've been. It was riddled with Ustulina.
If you're responsible for a tree that definitely has Ustulina, slate it for 'careful' removal straight away. Its totally unpredicatable decay; failure points look like broken ceramics. I've straight felled trees with this stuff and winches, and you get no control unless its leaning in the direction of fall.
I remember Claus Matteck on his Dublin tour a few years ago showing pics of a huge healthy beech with strnge growth at the base. All his tests concluded nothing, but it was decided to fell it. The tree came over as they tensioned the winch cable - no cuts!
I bet the climber who put the cable up had a good think about what could've been. It was riddled with Ustulina.
paolo....most of my work is on beech trees....i dont need to do a resistograph test on this tree to know whats inside, and ive told the client it needs to come out but as its a prominent tree on the skyline he wants to keep it.
i suggested a resistograph test to determine the safety factor of the tree so he could see where i was coming from which he was more than happy to pay up for.
ive now had 2 answers saying yes a resistograph will definetly pick it up and 1 saying no. who is right?
i suggested a resistograph test to determine the safety factor of the tree so he could see where i was coming from which he was more than happy to pay up for.
ive now had 2 answers saying yes a resistograph will definetly pick it up and 1 saying no. who is right?
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
[ QUOTE ]
If you're responsible for a tree that definitely has Ustulina, slate it for 'careful' removal straight away. Its totally unpredicatable decay;
[/ QUOTE ]
This fungus is inside many trees all along, and starts to grow only after the tree's resources are strained. Rebuild the resources by invigorating the roots, and other cultural improvements, and the infection can be compartmentalized and go dormant.
We've managed many trees with hypoxylon canker--aka Ustulina--for many years. Some can improve greatly and maybe outlive us, if we use other tools instead of just saws.
It is hard to predict, but not unpredictable. If the cankers are big and deep, it's got to go. My rule of thumb: if the canker <1/3 brahch circumference = workable, 1/3-1/2 without callus = iffy, >1/2 circ. and dia. without callus = remove. For stems, less tolerance.
It's usually slow to progress, so if there are not any bad aggravating factors, often the best service is to prune, invigorate and return in a year or two to reassess.
There Steve, you heard it twice now.
A picture would be helpful.
If you're responsible for a tree that definitely has Ustulina, slate it for 'careful' removal straight away. Its totally unpredicatable decay;
[/ QUOTE ]
This fungus is inside many trees all along, and starts to grow only after the tree's resources are strained. Rebuild the resources by invigorating the roots, and other cultural improvements, and the infection can be compartmentalized and go dormant.
We've managed many trees with hypoxylon canker--aka Ustulina--for many years. Some can improve greatly and maybe outlive us, if we use other tools instead of just saws.
It is hard to predict, but not unpredictable. If the cankers are big and deep, it's got to go. My rule of thumb: if the canker <1/3 brahch circumference = workable, 1/3-1/2 without callus = iffy, >1/2 circ. and dia. without callus = remove. For stems, less tolerance.
It's usually slow to progress, so if there are not any bad aggravating factors, often the best service is to prune, invigorate and return in a year or two to reassess.
There Steve, you heard it twice now.
Treespotter
New member
- Location
- Houten, The Netherlands
If you have got a Resistograph Steve, than there is a Fractometer in your gear as well. As you probably know Mattheck constantly states that the Resi is almost never to be used on it's own.
So get out the increment borer and break the core with the Fractometer in front of the tree owner. Make sure there is a stretcher behind him or her
So get out the increment borer and break the core with the Fractometer in front of the tree owner. Make sure there is a stretcher behind him or her
Steve, this fungus' fruit bodies vary with maturity. So to calrify, if the tree in question has black fruiting bodies in clusters around the base, don't consider anything but felling it. The decay process is quite complex and very dangerous.
I presume if it fails it will cause damage?
I presume if it fails it will cause damage?
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
[ QUOTE ]
if the tree in question has black fruiting bodies in clusters around the base, don't consider anything but felling it.
[/ QUOTE ]So if there is a 2 cm fruiting body on a tree with 200cm circumference, you would fell it? That flies against every recent publication. a JoA review of one is attached.
if the tree in question has black fruiting bodies in clusters around the base, don't consider anything but felling it.
[/ QUOTE ]So if there is a 2 cm fruiting body on a tree with 200cm circumference, you would fell it? That flies against every recent publication. a JoA review of one is attached.
Those points are academic - the only way to detect the presence of Ustulina is via the fruiting bodies, or by increment borer and fractometer (or waggle test). You're going to have to cover the tree in BIG holes to get an idea of where the decay is - and that won't tell you if its in the roots (Ud is commonly associated with windthrow). So which objective test do you use that enables you to determine with confidence when a tree is compromised significantly to warant felling? Also Pruning will weaken the trees reserves to resist the decay, and fertilising the tree will feed the fungus also, as your article points out.
I met Francis Schwarz about 15 years ago - went to the same college as me and worked for the same Austrian company. I've followed his career with interest.
Understanding fungi from lab tests doesn't always help practicalities of field situations or making public safety decisions, if you can't detect the internal extent of the fungi.
"This is a particularly dangerous decay fungus, partly because...of the type of decay it causes. The brittle fracture associated with this decay often occurs with no warning of incipient failure, and without the compensatory thickening of the stem that can occur with fungi which cause selective delignification (Ganoderma spp). Except in VERY advanced cases, this decay cannot be detected with a stress wave timer and may also escape detection by certain mechanical probes." Principles of Tree Hazard Assessment and Management by David Lonsdale.
I've got the book your JOA article cited too.
Recommend the tree be felled Steve. You can play around with Ganoderma et al, but not this stuff. Root fungi that destabilise and can't be measured are a similar threat - Meripilus, Griffola, Armillaria. They MAY be OK, just like they MAY NOT be - ticking time bombs. If someone else wants to risk leavng them standing, thats upto them and their insurance/value of a life. And don't forget about the poor sod who has to risk his life pruning/dismantling them.
Hear about the tree Birmingham council pussy footed around for years knowing there was a problem? Came down in rush hour and killed 7 people. Highways inspectors have been nervous wrecks up and down the country ever since.
I met Francis Schwarz about 15 years ago - went to the same college as me and worked for the same Austrian company. I've followed his career with interest.
Understanding fungi from lab tests doesn't always help practicalities of field situations or making public safety decisions, if you can't detect the internal extent of the fungi.
"This is a particularly dangerous decay fungus, partly because...of the type of decay it causes. The brittle fracture associated with this decay often occurs with no warning of incipient failure, and without the compensatory thickening of the stem that can occur with fungi which cause selective delignification (Ganoderma spp). Except in VERY advanced cases, this decay cannot be detected with a stress wave timer and may also escape detection by certain mechanical probes." Principles of Tree Hazard Assessment and Management by David Lonsdale.
I've got the book your JOA article cited too.
Recommend the tree be felled Steve. You can play around with Ganoderma et al, but not this stuff. Root fungi that destabilise and can't be measured are a similar threat - Meripilus, Griffola, Armillaria. They MAY be OK, just like they MAY NOT be - ticking time bombs. If someone else wants to risk leavng them standing, thats upto them and their insurance/value of a life. And don't forget about the poor sod who has to risk his life pruning/dismantling them.
Hear about the tree Birmingham council pussy footed around for years knowing there was a problem? Came down in rush hour and killed 7 people. Highways inspectors have been nervous wrecks up and down the country ever since.
treespotter, i dont have a resistograph, a friend does. and as i stated before its clear to me the state the trees in. the resistograph option for the customer was purely to show him. although i guess i could price a increment borer and fractometer reading into the price, didnt think of that option.
paolo, i'd say the cluster of ustulina around the base of the tree is definetly the biggest cluster ive come across, as u know this more often than not hides between the buttresses and escapes observation pretty well.....from memory i'd say we're looking at approximately 1 square ft of fungus.
as for what damage it could cause, none except for killing very expensive race horses.....so lets call it a couple million potentially.
paolo, i'd say the cluster of ustulina around the base of the tree is definetly the biggest cluster ive come across, as u know this more often than not hides between the buttresses and escapes observation pretty well.....from memory i'd say we're looking at approximately 1 square ft of fungus.
as for what damage it could cause, none except for killing very expensive race horses.....so lets call it a couple million potentially.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
A foot at the base; why didn't you say so? I agree that an increment core of the rot should persuade the owner it's time to say goodbye. I'm used to seeing it in branches and scaffolds, where it can be more easily held at bay.
"Root fungi that destabilise and can't be measured are a similar threat - Meripilus, Griffola, Armillaria."
Well this statement goes beyond this thread, so no detail here, but these are very different problems. Armillaria in particular can be compartmentalized. I'm working on a tree with Meripilus right now, so I'll have an idea in a few years whether that is indeed a ticking time bomb, or one with a fuse that can be extinguished.
A client with a 6' dbh willow oak likes her tree, but also likes the Grifola fungus as an ornamental. I haven't done much with either yet; maybe this winter. Grifola has a reputation as a slow rotter. She wants both to stay around.
When do we cut the tree down? With this one, not until decay is documented, and mitigation is exhausted. yes reduction removes food-making leaves, but the tradeoff is negotiable. Some limbs pack a high load but few leaves.
"Root fungi that destabilise and can't be measured are a similar threat - Meripilus, Griffola, Armillaria."
Well this statement goes beyond this thread, so no detail here, but these are very different problems. Armillaria in particular can be compartmentalized. I'm working on a tree with Meripilus right now, so I'll have an idea in a few years whether that is indeed a ticking time bomb, or one with a fuse that can be extinguished.
A client with a 6' dbh willow oak likes her tree, but also likes the Grifola fungus as an ornamental. I haven't done much with either yet; maybe this winter. Grifola has a reputation as a slow rotter. She wants both to stay around.
When do we cut the tree down? With this one, not until decay is documented, and mitigation is exhausted. yes reduction removes food-making leaves, but the tradeoff is negotiable. Some limbs pack a high load but few leaves.
If my clients have trees that aren't a threat and want them to be retained, then you can play around a bit with 'life extension' measures. But if the tree is likely to cause serious damage should it fail and the client wants it retained, it will be in writing that that is not my recommendation.
I've just googled the heck out of that fungus and man it's a bad boy.
But I cannot get data on whether or not the resistograph picks it up.
Black fruiting bodies are the WARNING signs.
Man that was a bad deal when the tree failed killing those people, can you get some links on that?
I'm not sure we get that fungus here, I certainly have never seen it.
It seems to really like the beech trees.
But I cannot get data on whether or not the resistograph picks it up.
Black fruiting bodies are the WARNING signs.
Man that was a bad deal when the tree failed killing those people, can you get some links on that?
I'm not sure we get that fungus here, I certainly have never seen it.
It seems to really like the beech trees.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
[ QUOTE ]
If my clients have trees that aren't a threat and want them to be retained, then you can play around a bit with 'life extension' measures.
[/ QUOTE ]It ain't play, but serious work. Call it experimental if you want, but it's a legitimate service with sound science backing it. [ QUOTE ]
But if the tree is likely to cause serious damage should it fail and the client wants it retained, it will be in writing that that is not my recommendation.
[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely a good idea. On those trees it is best to make no recommendation at all, just lay out the options and let the owner decide.
this is much better than saying 'I recommend removal' or 'it will probably need removal within five years", which are stock phrases that some arborists say without thinking for each and every tree they see.
Eric the rgraph does not pick up the rot well because as I understand it the middle lamella, which cements together the walls of neighboring cells, is not degraded by Ustulina. That's also why infected trees maintain compressive strength, which is why they don't show signs of buckling. But the flexibility is gone.
If my clients have trees that aren't a threat and want them to be retained, then you can play around a bit with 'life extension' measures.
[/ QUOTE ]It ain't play, but serious work. Call it experimental if you want, but it's a legitimate service with sound science backing it. [ QUOTE ]
But if the tree is likely to cause serious damage should it fail and the client wants it retained, it will be in writing that that is not my recommendation.
[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely a good idea. On those trees it is best to make no recommendation at all, just lay out the options and let the owner decide.
this is much better than saying 'I recommend removal' or 'it will probably need removal within five years", which are stock phrases that some arborists say without thinking for each and every tree they see.
Eric the rgraph does not pick up the rot well because as I understand it the middle lamella, which cements together the walls of neighboring cells, is not degraded by Ustulina. That's also why infected trees maintain compressive strength, which is why they don't show signs of buckling. But the flexibility is gone.
[ QUOTE ]
Eric the rgraph does not pick up the rot well because as I understand it the middle lamella, which cements together the walls of neighboring cells, is not degraded by Ustulina. That's also why infected trees maintain compressive strength, which is why they don't show signs of buckling. But the flexibility is gone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its a pity scientists don't always explain things so well. More trees would be better served if they did.
I didn't mean to be flipant with 'play', I meant experiment. Unfortunately, recommendations have to be made in written reports. The options need to be explained, but we need to guard against leading ourselves or a client down a path they/we think is safe, when in reality there lurk wolves of known aggression, we just don't know where or how many.
I think I know how a good barrister would paint it, and thats a good incentive for me to stay focused on safety with this fungus; not because I think its always right, but because of the way the law bites (society just isn't prepared to take risks with perceived safety).
I am always leniant wth my decisions. But until I can measure Ustulina, I will err on the side of caution. Many trees ahve failed with this and the others cited, with lush crowns but not a breath of wind. That is the nature of their 'unpredictability'.
Eric the rgraph does not pick up the rot well because as I understand it the middle lamella, which cements together the walls of neighboring cells, is not degraded by Ustulina. That's also why infected trees maintain compressive strength, which is why they don't show signs of buckling. But the flexibility is gone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its a pity scientists don't always explain things so well. More trees would be better served if they did.
I didn't mean to be flipant with 'play', I meant experiment. Unfortunately, recommendations have to be made in written reports. The options need to be explained, but we need to guard against leading ourselves or a client down a path they/we think is safe, when in reality there lurk wolves of known aggression, we just don't know where or how many.
I think I know how a good barrister would paint it, and thats a good incentive for me to stay focused on safety with this fungus; not because I think its always right, but because of the way the law bites (society just isn't prepared to take risks with perceived safety).
I am always leniant wth my decisions. But until I can measure Ustulina, I will err on the side of caution. Many trees ahve failed with this and the others cited, with lush crowns but not a breath of wind. That is the nature of their 'unpredictability'.
well i spoke to the distributors of the resistograph today and they confirmed the resistograph isnt the best tool for picking up ustulina except in advanced cases. They recomended a picus test or fractometer. i think im going to go with the fracotmeter testing as that will give me a good excuse to go buy one!
Regardless of the outcome im going to recommend the client either fells the tree or moves the paddock fencing a safe distance from the tree.
Regardless of the outcome im going to recommend the client either fells the tree or moves the paddock fencing a safe distance from the tree.
I checked the accident Ekka, but couldn't find much. Seems it was 3 people killed. probably the rest were badly injured. I know someone who knows first hand, so I'll ask. What I do know is that the tree had been inspected many times, but responsibility past from pillar to post and no-one made a decision (sound famliar? it never ceases to amaze me how beuracracy can cloud reality).
Got a couple of training courses for 24 highways inspectors in two weeks. Its going to be a good example for them to pay attention! I can think of a tree with Ustulina too (right next to the highway!).
Got a couple of training courses for 24 highways inspectors in two weeks. Its going to be a good example for them to pay attention! I can think of a tree with Ustulina too (right next to the highway!).
theres a tree just down the road from me, think the job will probably be coming my way.....masses of merripilus at the base and polyporous squamosis 25ft up. As a rough guess i'd say the main crown is probaly devoid of about 50% of its growth.....they actually sent someone to deadwood it 2 years ago, utterly pointless excercise. this tree hangs over a busy off-slip on the A14
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
Many reports are written without recommendations over here. Is there some kind of law in Wales that you MUST make a recommendation? If so I'm glad to be in the usa.
re scientists' explanations, yeah the big trick is to translate their findings into practical language. Technology Transfer they call it--that's the main goal of the ISA as I understand it.
That's pretty cool that highway folks are going to tree school--in the state of Virginia they are doing the same. Any other states people know of? The problem is making sure they do not overreact to every little fruiting body. If they do, it may be better for them to stay untrained.
(below reprinted from Arborist News)
• Decay of living wood is caused by fungi, so the sight of a fungal reproductive structure, such as a conk or a mushroom, can be a sign of decay. However, some fungi are saprophytes, which only grow on wood that is already dead. Saprophytes are not pathogens, because they do not cause disease. Even if a fungus is pathogenic, it may be very weak, so if the tree is in good health it can live with the fungus indefinitely.
Strong pathogens such as Armillaria mellea sometimes stop spreading after being walled off or “compartmentalized” by the tree. *A fungus is not a sign of structural weakness until any decay is assessed.* Identifying the fungus, and assessing overall tree vitality, can help forecast the spread of decay, and the tree's response.
re scientists' explanations, yeah the big trick is to translate their findings into practical language. Technology Transfer they call it--that's the main goal of the ISA as I understand it.
That's pretty cool that highway folks are going to tree school--in the state of Virginia they are doing the same. Any other states people know of? The problem is making sure they do not overreact to every little fruiting body. If they do, it may be better for them to stay untrained.
(below reprinted from Arborist News)
• Decay of living wood is caused by fungi, so the sight of a fungal reproductive structure, such as a conk or a mushroom, can be a sign of decay. However, some fungi are saprophytes, which only grow on wood that is already dead. Saprophytes are not pathogens, because they do not cause disease. Even if a fungus is pathogenic, it may be very weak, so if the tree is in good health it can live with the fungus indefinitely.
Strong pathogens such as Armillaria mellea sometimes stop spreading after being walled off or “compartmentalized” by the tree. *A fungus is not a sign of structural weakness until any decay is assessed.* Identifying the fungus, and assessing overall tree vitality, can help forecast the spread of decay, and the tree's response.
Many points I'd like to discuss Guy, but I have to go to work!
The highways inspectors already carry responsibilty for the sfaety of road users from all street furniture including trees. We certainly aren't training them to be Arborists - they are our eyes and ears. We train them to recognise potential hazards and how to use the data collection device (toughbooks with GPS mapping and tree survey menus). Its up to us then to determine the risk.
Its a challenge - they don't particularly like this part of their responsibility!
The highways inspectors already carry responsibilty for the sfaety of road users from all street furniture including trees. We certainly aren't training them to be Arborists - they are our eyes and ears. We train them to recognise potential hazards and how to use the data collection device (toughbooks with GPS mapping and tree survey menus). Its up to us then to determine the risk.
Its a challenge - they don't particularly like this part of their responsibility!
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